Film Courage: Wendy when did you begin LA4hire? Wendy Kram, Owner/Operator of Wendy's LA4hire: began la for hiring mm to eat and it was
I was thinking of at the time moving back to New York where I'm from and I
was having drinks with the girlfriend who works in media and she said you know
what it's 2008 the bank said I'll crash nobody was hiring and everyone was
cutting back and she said you know you should do consulting you're kind of like
you're like la for hire you know you know you've been in the business for
working in studios Disney's Sony universal you know the player is you
know how to navigate I think you'd be a very valuable resource for people
outside of you know the business and we're looking for connections and to
package projects and so on and it's like that sounds good and I was taking a
subway to where I was staying and by the time I got up out of the subway I had a
I was thought okay I'm starting a company called LA for hire consulting
and I envisioned my logo and I started brainstorming about the services that I
would offer and that's how I started this was a subway in LA Oh in New York
you're taking the LA metro yeah so what was your first step in starting it my
first step was talking to industry colleagues and saying what do you think
of this idea the notion was for production companies or producers who
might be you know not with studios and had material looking to you how do you
or if you're a screenwriter how do you get an agent how do you get if you don't
know people how can you get your material seen the fur production
companies that might be having cutbacks that they could hire freelance executive
someone who knows the players who knows how do you understand script development
who kids confident when it comes to working with writers and helping
implement notes if there's open writing assignments contacting the agents
telling them the nature of the project is discussing preparing writers list
directors lists and so it really be a conduit for companies that might not be
based in LA and might not have those relationships I think you'd said in
another interview that you know you'll have people come up to you on set when
you're working with one client and say you know what Wendy I like what you're
doing I'm I do this and I don't you know have a script but I normally am you know
a grip or something can you help me what are some of the things that people
normally have trouble with that aren't used to being sort of in the development
part right well I think the first thing is really knowing and understanding what
a good script is a lot of people will write a script and they may go through a
couple of drafts and I think that they they don't have a full understanding or
appreciation of what it really takes for an executive to decide that they want to
recommend it to their boss for producer to option material first studio to
decide to finance it and a lot of times there are really great ideas with
stories at the end of the day it's is it well executed it can there have been
times for myself as a producer where I've heard a concept and I say oh my god
this sounds amazing I want to option it then I read the script
and the characters are not particularly well-developed
the dialogue might be very what we often people will hear comment among
executives it's on the nose or it's expositional and it just then requires
too much development to get it to a place where it needs to be that it winds
up being a pass now unless it's based on source material
such as a graphic novel a book an article and sometimes you can use that
to sell a project without a script but it used to be for the tongue that I
started in developed about 20 years ago dating myself it was
easy to sell log lines I it would there was just much more financing of
development and because of the economic changes the studios are not financing
development at all the way they used to is that post 2008 or even even the post
2008 yeah yeah I think you said to in an article yeah I know you've written a lot
of fantastic articles on is it script magazine skirt magazines then writer's
digest writer's digest okay great so do
excellent sites about how there's different skill sets for above the line
versus below the line and they're both equally important but can we just define
what some of those skill sets are sure so above the line which is what I've
been involved with is finding the material so whether it's optioning a
true story life rights book original script and then getting it ready to
start making submissions identifying who the right buyers are understanding the
market knowing that Netflix and HBO and Showtime buy certain kinds of projects
worth where as NBC ABC CBS have different mandates and the and same with
future companies like Fox Searchlight is more akin to independent movies whereas
if you look at most of the studios doing they're doing tentpole movies or
franchise films you look at Disney where they're primarily doing you know Star
Wars the Marvel Universe and their own IP or crown jewels the classic fairy
tales and the so the above the line is taking the material and identifying the
right home the right buyers attaching directors actors
and assembling your crew the below-the-line are the nuts and bolts
people who make the movie happen people with you know the skills so whether it's
your boom operator editor a cinema photographer and they have a completely
different skill set which I I mean when I look at great Sena photographers or
any cinema photographer I'm amazed at how it really involves engineering and
artistry and it's beyond my comprehension really how they do it
so there's yeah different skill sets so we always hear every good entrepreneur
always ask the question to themselves what need am i filling a marketplace so
with LA for hire when you had that sort of epiphany moment on the subway what
what were you thinking the need is that you're feeling the deep definitely was I
found myself when I was a development executive I'd been started out as a
creative executive for a producer at Disney and then I worked at sand dollar
which I felt very fortunate to work there was one of the biggest management
companies in Hollywood and we had deals at Universal and Disney and I always
loved working with writers and their different executives that have different
strengths and I found that working with writers and helping them bring out their
best work was constantly feedback that I would get from the writers I was working
with and just loved that process so much and then when I was on my own in between
jobs and my friend had suggested why don't you do consulting and as it was I
I kept getting people coming to me for advice with their scripts and how to
make it better and so I just decided all right well let me turn this into a you
know a real business and the other need was definitely when I looked at
companies producers filmmakers all over the world that like I had a friend who
was a producer in Germany and he spoke English fluently and he asked me for
help on a project where he said I need to know how to talk to the agents and it
wasn't that he didn't speak English his English was perfect he said he felt like
he didn't know the right way to pitch things that kind of buzz words and so on
- you get taken seriously and so on so that's another thing I do it my company
I coach your emerging filmmakers or you can even be perfect existing
professionals how to improve the the way they present their material and I also
noticed many times that right on my pitch an idea and it doesn't sound that
interesting so I'll start asking questions and as I start to pull out
more information I go ah and then we put a different spin on it that can convey
the idea more strongly so a lot of times I feel that writers can undersell their
property they don't have the right kind of spin to communicate this is another
thing writers because they live with their characters have lived with their
characters for years and you know in the process of writing months they know
their characters so well that there sometimes is the unconscious feeling
that when they're writing something on the page or giving a logline that we're
going to know all the you know the the the the dots between are those the
connections between the dots so I think it's an important process for
writer producer to be able to find the best way to articulate their concept
obviously but because they might have a great idea in it they might not be
communicating in the best way possible the other thing is with companies let's
say in Europe is understanding who are the good names that really trigger
movies in terms of yeah actors is a lot of times people mention names and they
don't necessarily even if it's a wonderful actor who's well respected
they might not trigger the sale it might not be a name that's meaningful to a
Netflix or or is a Fox Searchlight and so on so that's one of the things that I
will know and the only reason why I will know is because I'm in constant contact
on a daily basis with people who know a lot more than me so it's not that I'm so
you know brilliant or you know that it's rocket science but it's being able to
have access I feel like every day I'm always learning more from people who are
more in the note than I am it's interesting what you say about
communication I know this is a little bit of a tangent I'm going off on but I
just read an article about managers and ones with high IQ versus ones with maybe
more of a normal IQ yeah and how the ones with a high IQ actually were more
off-putting and they didn't realize that about themselves hmm so it sounds like
with sometimes just the communication and it's not it's not maybe that they
were even coming across as will I know more it was just their communication
style it was different and so people couldn't relate to it so it sounds like
- is writers because they're so internal they don't rave you
they just need ya just how does a little bit of an objective you know point of
view because it is very internal you're living it's and I know for myself when
I'm working I also manage a few select writers and when I'm working with them
they'll often say okay I need a fresh set of eyes and if I've gone through
multiple drafts I'll get to a point where I'll say that you know I want to
give it show this to an industry colleague or let's you know get a reader
who I trust and let's get their their thoughts I think we all needed a certain
point an objective set of eyes to look at material and the balance of course is
being able to do that without losing yourself and your core
vision and I think one of the things you and I had talked about was the notion of
if like you're looking for a mentor is it good to have someone give critique of
your project or not I say absolutely but it should be a respected professional or
someone whose opinion you really respect it can be a friend who's quite
intelligent or has a good sense of story but the you know definitely don't
protect yourself by not asking someone who may not have your best interests at
heart and would just criticize to be critical sure sure and I actually want
to ask you more about that later in terms of also to someone that might be
too nice because they don't want to hurt your feelings right but it ends up
hurting you in the end just real quickly Wendy I mean I know why I love watching
writer q and A's I find writers fascinating what is it about writers
that interest you so much oh goodness I would say maybe from the time I was a
child I just loved stories as a way of immersing ourselves into another world I
think also any Penton problems we as human beings have or children when you
see another character going through something difficult there's an empathic
connection that you make and that you can vicariously experience what they're
going through a lot of times I think it can be therapeutic and healing and I
think that is the magic of great films as well as great literature there's it's
connecting to the the universal themes or what I mean Carl Jung talks about the
collective unconscious and that and I know there when a lot of people will
will speak about the importance of films that you can reach such a huge audience
that ranges you know ethnic cultural socio-economic a great case in point I
have many favorite movies I don't want to isolate this as my favorite of all
time but one of my favorite movies I felt was so powerful was a wrestler and
I said okay what does a upper-middle class you know young woman from New York
have in common with a wrestler I don't even watch the sport nothing but that
character's plight the way he was an outsider the way he had regrets the way
he wanted to fix some part of his past and mend his relationship with his with
his daughter was just so moving and so powerful I mean I found myself at the
end of the movie crying so I love that about movies and I love that writers can
create whether it's Aaron Sorkin he's such a master of dialogue - Guillermo
del Toro who can create such an extraordinary immersive world it's just
the magic of storytelling oh and I'd say we do really being able to if I carry
ously experience someone else I love the wrestler I want to watch that
night you reimburses does I want to rent it again yeah how does a writer know
that their screenplay is ready for market
is a very good question I think the first thing it's just really essential
that a writer submitted to colleagues for feedback and I mean I am a
professional in this field a lot of times I even though I am NOT a writer I
write treatments I work with writers on treatments and Bibles and so on and at a
certain point I'll go through multiple drafts I have a good built-in sense of
editing but at a certain point you know I might think
this is great and then I'll send it to a trusted colleague whether it's another
executive at a production company or a writer whose opinion I respect and
they'll come back and I don't know if they'll look money in my ass if I
couldn't say that but they'll come back with feedback and go you know the the
treatment really isn't getting interesting until page tip so I would
cut out the first page in a half and you know what it's so and it it's it makes
it better and there are so I think are times where
if it's someone who is opinion you know you need to really stay centered and on
point and I was something they definitely feel strongly about for
writers is that especially in the notes taking process because let's say a
writer sets up a project with a production company studio or network and
they give notes one of the worst things to do is to constantly be defending your
position and producers and executives will start to feel you know what life's
too short this person isn't receptive they're not fun to work with they're not
getting it they love it everything they're doing you know what I'm not
going to renew or we're going to replace the writer the best way for a writer to
be able to take notes is to be totally open and receptive and to try to hear
like what almost like with a second sense of what the executive is trying to
say so let's say they say let me just think of an example that I don't think a
character should you know say this line they sound kind of mean right here and I
don't feel and then the writer if you're listening rather than just defending it
you say oh that wasn't my attention I was i meant that he was being defensive
and a little bit sarcastic but he was kind of trying to be say it in a
charming way so then the executive would say okay
I get it now but that wasn't coming through so then the writer can see that
their intention wasn't coming across it that they would go back and tweak it a
bit so again I think it's very important to stay like you know true to your voice
and not just like roll over if someone says okay well we have a an 85 year old
protagonist um and she has dementia but I decided that I like everything else
about this story but let's turn her into a thirteen year old now
and believe it or not I have heard of situations not too far away from that as
a writer I think you need to defend your position and why it was essential to the
story that that character is was 85 with dementia that might not be the best
example but it's basically a balance between maintaining the integrity of
your vision because you can't just roll over for everything because then you
wind up with nothing and you compromise artistry and any kind
of creative vision that you have but anyway in terms of a writer knowing when
a project is ready I think that I hear a lot of writers when I'm working with
them they'll say well there's always going to be improvements to be made I
think when you are working with people whether it's a strong script consultant
development executive friend who's maybe a writer whose opinion you respect
development executive assistant to a producer assistant to a writer director
and so on someone who's really experienced with reading material and
knowing what Studios want that when it gets to a point where there's less and
less notes and the collective feeling is yeah there might be some work that still
needs to be done because there always will be but it's good enough and for me
the bar of what's good enough is the character that's that's a well-developed
that's really coming through even if there may be irascible or somewhat
unlikable that they we still can have empathy for that character if they're a
villain it's still good to have some empathy not always as important but for
your protagonist there's been a distinction between sympathy what they
might do doesn't have to be sympathetic but you should have a degree of empathy
for them and so I think it's it's really when you're when the feedback comes back
pretty consistently that this is good and you're not just looking for your
validation you have to be you know really open
I almost picture it like the kid in the class that finishes the test before
everybody else and walks out and everybody looks around like wow how'd
they finish that so fast can we take that same analogy with a new writer who
kind of says you know what I just want to get my work out there I don't really
need all these drafts I know this is good right you know it's possible
someone might be a savant of screenwriting and able to do it
every great screenwriter that I've seen and the ones who get the all the awards
they always say that it's taken them 30 40 drafts there is a top top one of the
most powerful show runners and telev in hit television history and she said and
this might be an obvious thing to say but she said you know a lot of people
say they want my life but they're not willing to put in the hours and the
blood sweat and tears I have another friend who's a top female showrunner and
I know that hours that she works and it's not a 40-hour week sometimes it's
an 80 hour week she's there's she loves her job
and she on weekends sometimes she'll be there till midnight on a Friday and
Saturday working you know eight to 12 hours and then the weekdays so
the I think you know look Mozart I think wrote his you know Compton amazing
compositions and he was somewhat of a savant so I think it is possible but I
think something that gets in the way is I understand the enthusiasm and
excitement to want to get your script out there but there can be may be either
naivete or hubris and I've noticed a lot there are times when the writers are
more and it could be the same with an actor that they're more focused on the
end result and I know for me as the producer and executive I'm focused on
the end result there's nothing I want more than a movie to get made it is the
greatest high after you've gone through all this work and seeing it come to
fruition and seeing the set designer create the sets and your actors you know
actually performing the lines and the scenes but if you look at every
wonderful writer director filmmaker actor the trajectory of their careers
they started out like doing little bit parts and movies that you never would
have thought they would wind up one day getting an Oscar so it's at each step is
a is a part of the process of the journey
he's just say whether they get someone like Kathryn Bigelow you know when she
started out or patty Jenkins for example when Cuddy did monster and I think she'd
gone to AFI she just kept doing good work these are people just kept doing
good work I don't think that you know patty Jenkins thought when she was at
AFI oh I'm gonna do an indie film called monster and get an Oscar for the leading
actress and I'm then gonna go and do Wonder Woman superhero and be the first
woman to woman to you know break all box office records as the director
barry jenkins when he did moonlight i don't think he was doing it because he
thought oh I'm gonna get an Oscar I think he wanted to he was compelled to
tell a story and he told it beautifully and it affected and resonated you know
with so many people so I think the most important thing for writers directors
actors is to stay committed to the craft and just doing the best work that you
can and surround yourself with people who can give you really constructive
feedback even if it's not always what you want to hear but to be open to
feedback that can be constructive and make you a better writer do you think
that's a factor of age do you think younger people really want to rush to it
or it's not about that it could vary in my experience it's not about that
because I know older writers who you know they filmed like times not on their
side so that they actually in some ways can be in more of a rush than younger
writers that's true yeah when you see a writer that you know that they do have
talent you can see that it just maybe needs a little more refining and you
need to slow them down what are some of the things that you do
first I don't like to ever feel that I'm in the position to like slow so I went
down most of what I do is just ask questions if in the script there are
there's a plot aspects or character behavior that's not clear to me or
confusing or inconsistent I'll just ask the question and I always tell the
writer that they never do feel compelled to agree with me it's not a dictatorial
thing but it is for the purpose of I feel I'm a pretty good barometer of what
other how other executives are are going to respond to material and if it's not
clear to me then there's a good chance that it might not be clear to someone
else so they don't have to I never feel like I want to impose something to be
done a certain way but I will raise a question or I'll say I feel that this
dialogue it and feel authentic to me it feels like
there's an agenda the writer has an agenda that you want the character to
say this but I think if we're really looking in the scene and a daughter is
responding to her mother how much she really respond and I'll ask the writer
to go back and kind of try and find the truth rather than the written agenda if
that makes sense so so I think it's really more about asking questions and
pointing out areas that can be improved rather than slow down I'm like if you
think it's ready to go and you're happy with and you don't agree then by all
means you should pursue that but I think a lot of times there can be a tendency
to take something out too hastily do you think people are aware of that
how damaging that can be because if they get consistent coverage it just kind of
like labels that one project or even their name it's not ready you're yeah
and I'm getting let's say oh yeah because here's the thing is so you have
a lot of people writers will be focused on networking which is great networking
is important let's say you meet someone it's a producer and they say quit send
me your script and it's not very good you have a frozen moment in time to have
that capture that person's attention and if they don't respond to it or they have
an assistant who reads it and says because a lot of times it is what
happens and says it wasn't very good the next time you want to get something in
they might not be as inclined to read your work you know tell them it's the
past we the the writing was just not up to snuff it was very amateurish the
person doesn't even know how to write a script to be honest there are certain
things that there is classic formatting but there's also certain telltale signs
such as if there's dialogue on the page that takes up half a page or almost the
whole page that's a telltale sign of with exception of course there are
always exceptions but that would be a sign that it's an
amateur if there's peaches in a script that are so dense that it looks like a
novel that would be another sign if there's like page after page of in very
dense descriptions that will wind up in and they recycled in or the trash in the
your computer so let's suppose I'm at a networking event or I get invited to a
great festival and it's a mixer so someone says hey so you write let may I
see your work and I know it's probably not ready what's the best way to let
them know that we're I'm not hurting their feelings really sure it's a great
question I would say that oh that's fantastic
can I get your card I'm I'm doing revisions and I'd love to send it to you
when it's ready oh so just like I drop you and you know can I drop you an email
as a reminder when it's ready sure that'd be great
oh great so you're not waiting a year for the revision you're keeping them in
your mind or in their mind sorry you're saying hi I met you you know and thanks
sadly and you know what it could be a year if that's if that's really what it
takes to me it's ready when it's ready so an Eevee I met you a year ago at the
at Sundance and I mentioned a sci-fi one-hour trauma that I have and I
finally have it ready and it's been vetted and actually I don't even know if
I would go into all that detail but it said I mean and here's the brief premise
the very very briefly executives don't want a whole big description because
they also can be liable they don't want to hear ideas in too much detail because
they're not allowed to accept them for legal reasons but if it's someone that
you have met and just to give them a refresher this is the sci-fi one-hour
pilot about an alien who comes to earth can I send it to you and they'll either
respond and say great or they might say no that also there's another
subject which is submission release forms because a lot of executives and
agents will not take material without a submission release form unless it's
being if it's this is if it's not being submitted by an agent or manager
interesting yeah I wonder if people really understand that when people see
and I've seen it on Twitter people's Twitter BIOS do I do not take you know
and I see it all the time so and I for a newbie I do think they realize the
implications and how it's a turn-off to when someone says no like that there's
reasons why right it's not because they are they they don't think your idea is
good it's because they're protecting them so right so then there are ways
around to try and bypassed that and yeah that would probably fall under a whole
conversation there's a networking and Submission policies oops but for someone
to respect that when they see that someone says we do not take line
positions okay yeah well a good counter can be okay I'd be happy to sign a
submission release form and as I say that my you know disclaimer is that as
I'm saying this I am NOT an entertainment attorney sure so whoever
you may be listening if you get a submission release form you advise you
to show it to an entertainment attorney and it is up to you to decide whether to
sign it or not but that is a way around
that legality of them not wanting to accept it at all I saw you write
something about dull bits in a script and I'm curious what that means yes a
Hitchcock has one of my favorite quotes which and not let's see if I for all of
those who are Hitchcock aficionados forgive me if I don't have it exactly
right but it's something to the effect of movies are exactly like a real life
but with all the dull bits cut out and essentially if you think about films you
are lying movies are lies so let's say you're
doing a story about Helen Keller or Abraham Lincoln and let's say this
ban whether it takes place over a year or takes place over a lifetime or 20
years we're seeing a two-hour movie generally speaking an hour and a half
two hours a little more it's a consolidation of real life so you
have to cut out the dull bits so this is also I would say a common mistake that I
see with writers is that the need to explain the entrance into a scene and
the and leaving we don't need to see characters o walking into a door walking
down the hallway unless of course it's very purposeful like you're doing a
thriller and someone's walking down a hallway and there may be someone in
another room that they don't know about so that's there it's very purposeful but
we don't need to see a character entering and saying hi oh I just came in
from the grocery store we don't need to play that scene out and then see they
carry Joe say okay I'm leaving now I'm exaggerating a bit but there have their
scripts that I've read where every scene practically starts with the character
entering and exiting another example would be if we see a husband and wife
and they are heading to the in-laws we don't have to see them get in the car
put the kids and there are a little you know and the seat belts and the baby
seat drive the full distance obviously or even part of the distance and we see
them get out of the driveway walk up the door ring the doorbell so that's an
example of you cut out deliberately those dull bits long order sometimes
I'll say to writers think of the law and order edits so you may have a scene
where one of the you know one of the detectives says so do you know about
have you ever seen this victim you know what
last time I saw her she was partying with her friend Jessie where do you find
Jessie oh she's always hanging out at such-and-such Club boom we're at the
club and sometimes we might pick up a scene mid-conversation
so that's one example of cutting out dull bits that's a great analogy I like
that do you think people get some of that confused with novel writing yes
okay and even in novels you don't always have
you know character entering and entering but exiting but in with novel writing
one of the things that you can do is get fully inside the head of your character
so she's walking down the street and she sees a leaf and it reminds her of when
she was young this is I can factor and lost her virginity and we don't have the
luxury in scripts you can of course do well fantasy sequence or flashback but
generally speaking you can't do go on and you can't as like in a book you can
describe smells in a movie you can't really describe a smell you could say
that character burns toast and there's smoke coming out of the toaster but so
it definitely has to be much more economical and one of the things I said
a lot I was an English major where my greatest teachers was Shakespeare and
when I say that is that of course I had wonderful teachers who were guides but
one of the greatest teachers is reading great authors great screenwriters great
playwrights I talk about a lot of times with writers getting them feedback about
not writing with exposition Harold Pinter is a master of subtext I
recommend Matthew whiner and that Mad Men the characters rarely say exactly
what they're feeling there's so much subtext and it just makes the writing
that much more powerful do you think the the lost art of novel
reading will come back I don't know if I feel it's that lost even though Barnes
and Noble sadly is you know closing and but I think they're just so many
wonderful books out there and I know so many people who are in book clubs and I
J K Rowling bless her I mean she is responsible for getting more people more
children into reading and there's so many great authors out there and of
course as we know books are a great great source for for movies Hollywood
loves intellectual properties they like source material
it's another strategy sometimes with screenwriters they have a script and
it's well written and it they've been having a hard time for whatever reasons
gaining traction sometimes them they may turn it into a book and if the book
starts to get traction then they sort of reverse-engineer and go back and then
sell it as sell the script sell the book and the script based on the book scripts
are just awful when the writer tells you everything did I say that mine said that
okay who uh she's not a screenwriter she's not a producer she has been in the
business a long time as a unit publicist and she she has exquisite taste in films
and I remember asking her because I was asked that for I think a topic of an
article and I said what would you say is one of the things that makes has made
you want to get involved with a script and what do you think makes the script
really good and her we came out of her mouth is what makes scripts awful is
when characters tell you everything so examples are if a husband and a wife
let's say a wife saw her husband having lunch with another woman that she didn't
know about and he comes home from work he's like hi honey how's your
day and she were to say what she'll probably say in real life is it nothing
with that kind of you know I mean Matthew waters a master of the subtext I
recommend looking at just about any episode of Mad Men but much less
interesting so or she might say is that the husband comes in and says what did
you do today and I was in a similar situation once with and I did not say I
saw you with another woman having lunch today I wanted him to like I wanted to
maybe catch him in a lie I said or actually like well I you know what did
she do today and he said nothing special really did you have lunch somewhere
interesting what are you talking about and like maybe one of the things that I
love is that if you really play along with that you can also play with the
audience in terms of them thinking oh yeah he was having an affair then we
find out that it was an interior decorator and he was surprising his wife
by he just bought a little vacation home and he was making sure that or you just
like was renting in Malibu a place and he wanted to make sure all this stuff
was special for their anniversary and then what can happen is if she keeps
testing him and testing him and and she like starts bringing up old stuff about
how he pisses her off that scene could end with him not telling her what the
surprise was and the couple deciding you never trust me you know what I was gonna
do something nice with for you and screw you I want a divorce I'm just spinning
here and I'm not saying that that's you know they the greatest scene but that's
an example of when you play with subtext versus characters saying everything that
they're thinking another example if you take a streetcar named desire with
Blanche and Stanley and Stella and if you had
lanch saying well i really have been working as a prostitute and I'm
depressed and I have nowhere else to live game over like not very interesting
so if you think about it in those terms um yeah it's and it's really reflecting
how people are in real life people don't always say exactly what they're thinking
and feeling oh not at all yeah but that's what makes it so interesting too
because you like you said going along on the ride wondering will there be a
raised eyebrow that will reveal something or exactly versus because then
it just has like this flat tone and it really doesn't replicate human life and
I feel like that's one of the things that I was saying earlier when you would
ask what I love about movies is that we can vicariously put ourselves in the
other characters situation and we can say I've been in a situation like that I
didn't want to confront my husband if he'd been with another woman and so on
and so forth some or that like if you can tell sometimes if there's like
gossip or somebody said something about you so they come in how are you exactly
yes and you know they want something from that statement and then we can I
ourself in the the feeling of the person who is suspecting that maybe they were
talking about her but they're not coming out and saying right so I think that's
such a good point that you bring up is that it really engages us so much more
and because that's a comment that I said a lot you want to be engaged I mean good
writing good script the scripts at command attention is with an
extraordinary capacity to engage your reader and that's usually through really
smart dialogue like that like what you were talking about you talked about two
scripts that don't propel the character forward mm-hmm so can we can we have
maybe some examples of ones that would and then ones that don't or just some
themes all right well gosh okay Breaking Bad is that
a great example of an escalation of situations and the so I would say that's
the character every step that he takes there's a consequence and it leads to
another and another and then the character might try and get himself out
of it but it's it's it's kind of like the notion of Macbeth once you create or
do something bad it is it has its own momentum the I it's hard to say without
really doing specifics but basically every scene you want to feel that you're
advancing the story you're advancing the plot even if a character has a setback
that's there's still it there's still one of the I guess best ways to think
about it is that there's the core spine of the story where a character primary
character or you may have an ensemble but that each has a goal that there's a
primary objective that the character is trying to obtain and the obstacles that
get in the way that prevent them from that and how they even if it's a step
back but then they're still trying to overcome that obstacle there or in most
movies successful movies follow that formula I hate to say formula cuz I
don't like two things being being formulaic and an example really where
stories are not propelled forward is when I think the writer loses focus that
the focus is too diffused and one of the common reasons for that would be when
there are too many characters when a writer is introducing so many characters
that rather than get to know one or a few really well we're getting glimpses
of all these different characters but none of them because they don't have
time to develop them particularly well and so we don't have a core sense of
what a character is primary foe kiss or a group of characters primary
focus and goal is what are the obstacles that get in their way so I think anytime
there's a really diffuse focus and then scripts don't they one of just being
very dispersed and rather than having a through-line how does the lead
characters arc relate to structure very good question
when people talk about structure a lot referring to the classic structure that
we'll hear in Syd field and Bob McKee and I think both of those writers there
are books on screenwriting I think are really I think every screenwriters
should aspiring screenwriter should should read those books the question
about structure you'll hear okay there has to be act 1 act 2 act 3 and inciting
incident sometimes writers get so bogged down with oh no I've got it here too -
these they're really guidelines and it's really beginning middle and end when you
think of act 1 X 2 X 3 I know some other people are talking about 7 & 8 X
structures and so on but really with the story you want to have it can take away
all the terminology you're really looking at a beginning middle and end
the character you're usually starting out with a heroine or hero and that they
have a strong emotional want I think it's very that's really how we usually
get engaged whether it's the heroine in The Hunger Games she wants to protect
her sister and save her sister from dying you know in these these crazy
games and then the the journey the path is very clear she wants to survive and
live and in the process make sure that other people she cares about don't get
hurt the and then we have so many obstacles along the way because at every
twist and turn there are some things some element going against her
threatening to destroy her soshe's that's a very physical type of
obstacle that she has to continually try to overcome a movie that I loved in
terms of its character arc and maybe it's an oldie but goodie is an officer
and a gentleman you had the character who in the very
opening you see that he is the father who is it
drunk womanizer doesn't appreciate his son at all doesn't think his sons going
to amount to anything when he tells him that he's enlisted he I think makes fun
of him what you think you're a man now the whole movie is really about a guy
with so much armor and bad attitude when he first gets to training camp he
doesn't share with other of his bunk mates on other soldiers and he's just
really not a good guy but we know that deep down inside he's
carrying all this emotional hurt and we know that he really does want to be
better and not wind up like his dad and then you had the amazing performance by
Lou Gossett jr. as his captain sergeant who winds up breaking him down so you
have a character trying to better himself and then finally when he's
broken is when he starts to become a better guy and becomes an officer and a
gentleman and winds up with the girl and so on but usually there's a character
flaw or vulnerability and we see that getting chipped away and chipped away
until they're healed and that also applies in romantic comedies as well and
I can think of a couple of examples whether it's proposal or something about
Polly where you know the Ben Stiller character is very anal and the last
thing he wanted was the Jennifer Aniston character and through that relationship
he winds up becoming less uptight and really capable
of loving what about in the wrestler going back to that such a well that's
see not that's a really good question not every movie has to have this like
huge epiphany or growth the I'm trying to think the I think the wrestler is
thinking of something about Schmidt I was thinking also of fellini's movie La
Strada with Anthony Quinn where the character is in a relationship with this
woman that he totally takes for granted and the oh it would be a spoiler alert
at the end of the movie we see a man who really is broken and realizes that how
that he really is all alone so maybe there's a sense of growth or victory in
the triumph of awareness very quiet kind of Arc in Something About Schmidt that
Jack Nicholson character is looking for connection looking for connection
reconnecting with family friends whatever he is his left since his wife
died and realizing a sense that his life has really passed him by and at the end
of the movie the child that he was trying to be a pen pal with and finally
responded and it was so touching is it's the notion that we all we all want his
love in here that he was finally developing a relationship and a love
connection it was so small but it was meaningful and the wrestler what was so
sad was that he really he messed up he messed up connecting with his daughter
in the only place where he belonged was the ring even if that was going to be
where he was going to it was going to kill him so it just but you did see a
character who had a strong emotional want and I would say how structure
in terms of beginning middle and end relates to characters arc is starting
out with their strong emotional want what are the obstacles along the way and
the wrestler the obstacle was that he's been a screw-up certainly as a father
he's the obstacles are he's no longer he's older and been through a lot in
battle in the ring and that he the obstacle trying to reconnect and get a
daughter who he really abandoned to love him and then he gets in his own way but
we're sustaining this characters emotional want he has a setback and so
on and we see it through to the end whether they wind up satisfying and
learning or wind up going down and we just get a glimpse of their humanity
Wendy we had this comment come in a couple days ago on YouTube and the
viewer asked what should writers be concerned with when revising their
second or third draft of something a really good question because I know like
we all talked about a first draft but invariably the biggest part of writing
your script is the rewrite in the rewriting the rewrite I think the
biggest danger is well put it this way the purpose and the benefit is that it's
going to get clearer and crisper and better and tighter so the danger is when
you lose sight of what your core vision is now there are two ways this could
happen first if you've never haven't had a strong core vision to begin with then
each draft the goal should be to refine what that is and maybe the writer needs
to do an outline first and be really clear and I do recommend I think Blake
Snyder has a very effective beat sheet that's a useful tool and again I tell
writers that use it as a general guide and a general map but don't feel that
you have to adhere to like oh I've got it insert this moment at
exactly this page or try to contrive things you must be organic to your
follow your own organic process the another thing just with like about rules
and following formulas I'd like to use as an example when you see a great prima
ballerina like I saw many years ago Makarova who was one of the preeminent
ballerinas when I was growing up and she you know that she practiced her bars and
she knew her craft but when she got on stage you then abandon it it becomes
second nature that you should know your craft but that you can be free enough to
let the muse flow through you if you're so manufactured where you're trying to
hit every plot point and you're writing from that place you're not going to have
the magic and the kind of flow that a writer needs to have to really create
magical characters and dialogue and story so but it's helpful to have this
map so this is for a writer who might not have core vision to begin with for
most writers they do have a core vision of their piece and the danger becomes
when you lose your Center and you start listening to you're like a weed in the
wind that you keep swaying so this person said I should do this so I'm
going to do that this person said you keep going just in too many different
directions it is an art to be a artur a balance to be able to take advice
feedback suggestions from other people let it go through a sieve earth-like
filter and something that occurs to me is to maybe approach the advice the way
they make recommendations with meditation when you're when thoughts
come to you it's not that you're so rigid about I can't think any thoughts I
can thing any thoughts so the same way
you're not being richer than that I'm not going to take anyone suggestions and
you're not saying I'm gonna take everyone's suggestions you okay let's
see this was a good idea I'm gonna let that percolate this idea I don't think
it really fits in with the vision so I'm gonna put that one aside
I'll reexamine it just in case there's something there I need to look at and
there are others that you may go oh this person they don't get it at all
maybe I'm doing something that's not making it clear enough but I don't I
don't think they're the right person to give me advice for this you cannot a you
can't be a pleaser where you're trying to please everybody but generally
speaking if there is valuable feedback then to take it in and put it through
your own filter and process and see how you can address so the biggest danger is
losing sense of self and trying to please everybody and then you wind up
with mush and that's nothing it's neither here and are there there's a no
vision so can we just define coefficient here would be a really good example I
had a client who had a one-hour drama that was inspired by his life
experiences and he had a really really interesting story based on his
profession and he sent me the draft he had told me the logline and what he had
done and then I read the draft and I was like this doesn't sound at all like your
story and he had changed the protagonist to a woman which can be fine but there
were it felt so manufactured and contrived and so I just said a very
innocent question I said I'm really curious because what you would pitch to
me based on your life experience was so fascinating and riveting and I felt like
and that's what really interested me about the idea for this pilot and I
didn't see what I know of you I didn't see any of
you in this pilot whether it was a male or female character and he told me that
he had taken a number of writing workshops were or script coverage
services and certainly there are good ones out there but one they said you
should change it to a female you should make the protagonist a woman not a man
someone else said oh you should give her this backstory and you should give her
such and such kind of relationship with her mother and with an abusive boyfriend
and it became so far removed from what I thought was really the core vision or
essence of the story that he wanted to tell and he let go of that and came up
with something that and I he said I didn't even want to write this but I
thought I should you know that these were people who were telling me that I
that I should so that's what I think you need to stick with your core vision that
would be an example it's a great place to start on we talked about being able
to take constructive criticism and not being defensive and being open to the
notes what if people are giving you super nice feedback about things and it
feels disingenuous and you're not sure is this just a person that's trying to
please me mm-hmm it doesn't have to be a family member or friend and how do we
see through that it's a good question I think one is to say when you're seeking
constructive criticism because it is coming from a I mean I this is how I'd
like to give notes and if I'm asking someone to evaluate something for me I
may say I need you to be gentle this is my style I don't respond well to someone
who's going to shred everything but I do want honest feedback so if someone a lot
of writers will say to me and I usually say before I do consulting I say I want
to make sure that you want honest feedback certainly everyone has an
opinion what you will get from me is an informed opinion being that I do feel
it as one of my strengths as we get older I think we come to know what some
of our strengths are my affinity for literature from a young age to you know
working in the business and working for a long time with writers and loving the
process and that when you as a writer when you ask an opinion that you a lot
of writers will say to me I want an honest I will don't be afraid you can be
brutal etc it's not my desire or style to be
brutal because I don't like my teachers I did not feel that's constructive but I
do feel that I also say to my clients I'm not doing you a favor if I don't
provide an honest assessment based on my experiences in the business based on my
knowledge of how other industry executives respond to material it's not
the only opinion certainly but it will be an informed opinion so I think that
when writers are asking for feedback that they if someone's really like oh I
loved everything I loved everything that they you say I don't want you to just
say this to be nice if you have something that you think is constructive
and I can improve I would really appreciate that I would really value
that doesn't really matter if a protagonist is active or passive I I
think it does I think nobody wants to watch a passive
character and even in real life if we I guess there are some exceptions like
leaving Las Vegas where you had a depressed alcoholic who said that was
his journey and that's what the movie was about and of course it was based on
a very well known book the but even like a movie like Zelig where i guess it's a
character who's passive who's assuming other characters personalities that are
other individuals personalities assuming their identities
that he's actively doing that but most cases and then a certain way I guess you
could say in leaving Las Vegas and Nicolas Cage character was even though
he's sitting on a self a most of the time but he was pretty committed and
actively pursuing drinking himself to death and dying in Las Vegas he was
committed to not leaving Las Vegas I guess they think that otherwise it's
it's just boring and even in with the writing of a script it's best not to use
passive verbs such as he is being he is
he you always want to keep it active like he's walking it's not like the
sidewalks are passing him by i but I feel that you always want to have an
active protagonist sometimes you get scripts that are where they'll change
someone may change tenses you it always has to be active present tense talking
again about like getting too much advice to change a character even though it's
sort of like your central journey and you're writing about it do you think
people layer it with other parts of another character because it's too close
to home they don't want to totally write their story but the central message or
value of the film is a certain way but because they don't really want to have
it be their own biopic really that they pepper in these different things and it
waters it down so they make the protagonist a female when it's really a
man's journey right oh or a young man's coming-of-age story now I think that
come in it's interesting because with the changing of protagonist from a male
to female I understand that I mean if you take a movie like speed it did work
that it was a female but you could have reversed the sexes and it could have
worked the movie that Sandra Bullock did with not too long ago it was originally
I think written as a for George Clooney and they changed it
to a female I'm not adverse to that at all and I've had instances where I might
have where I've done that and sometimes it might been this a white lead and you
can make it an african-american character or a latin-american character
and that's fine and that's fresh you know to not have to you so there are
times when it can be really really great and improve the story but it's when a
person is compromising the the essence and spirit of what they are connecting
with and it's fine to I mean I've done true stories where we couldn't use the
actual characters names so we might have changed the their profession so if one
was a computer engineer maybe we made him a real estate agent or if the story
took place in Connecticut we changed it to Colorado
things like that are fine but it's you don't you want to always have a
connection with the true essence and spirit of the story and you accord I go
back to that word for me it's a core vision of something that moves Ewing and
compels you and is a really strong story that you want to tell and at the heart
of it is usually a it might be an image that triggers something or usually a
character with what I call a strong emotional want that I had mentioned you
a right we talked about that I feel like I'm always learning from respected
colleagues and associates and there's a screenwriter who I really really respect
and he was the one who would we can talk about motivation
I love with his phrase was that every character that you become engaged with
especially protagonist in almost every great film has this a character with a
very strong emotional want and need and actually another book that I love
Stanislavski an actor prepares he gives backstory for what the actor
needs to do before entering a scene and he talks about a character having a
super objective which is the grand overriding life objective and then the
immediate objective so maybe the big objective is I want to be retired and
live in the Bahamas my immediate objective I need to get this job
promotion or I mean a wolf just from this you could have different genres
immediately I can tell you that the different immediate objective is that he
wants to kill the man he works for and get his money and steal his money so
two totally different movies with when you change what the immediate objective
is and the super objective thinking - when you talk about books an adaptation
I love is White Oleander oh yeah that was really oh my gosh amazing film and
and book as well if you were to change Alice and Loehmann's character to a male
it seems like then you would have to change all of the foster parents to men
as well because it was a it was a relationship between the mother and
daughters right how toxic that was and it does create different dynamics I
think also because that was based on source material a really well-respected
book and a best-seller that you wouldn't change it and there probably wouldn't it
if it wasn't based on the best-selling book you could go other way but there
are two different stories and I think again ever if it was a screenwriter or
the author what is truest to what's getting you going what is inspiring you
is it you know dynamics between a mother and daughter are different than between
a father and son so I think it's really connecting as a writer when I say core
vision another way to describe it is the source of inspiration the thing that
gets you really excited about the story what is the journey you
want to tell right into for the motivation of all those mothers whether
it was Michelle Pfeiffer's character mhm and then all of the you know Renee
Zellweger had her own um you know motivation mm-hmm and and and Robyn
writes care it was so they all had these interesting motivations yeah very much
yeah and that's I think it's important for screamers to really I think we can
never take for granted not knowing our characters well enough now if it's
purely an action film like a speed it's not so important to the ride is the
movie the or the mummy the original one the it's there are motivations clearly
and a strong plot but it's really less about deep character development but
anytime you're doing if it's generally speaking if it's a psychological
thriller family drama comedy you need to not take for granted that you can't know
your characters enough a lot of writers don't go through that step of really
knowing them and immersing themselves in that character or characters I mean and
it comes up with like who are they what you know where are they when that the
movie starts are they in a happy place are they in a sad place did they just
break up with a boyfriend you are they on top of the world did they just get
fired these so knowing those kinds of things
and I apply what Stanislavski said which is what is their super objective what do
they want and life so to go through all of those things is there even if it's
not in the script is there a pivotal thing that happened that damaged them so
those types of things I usually give clients and working with the character
questionnaire to help unleash all those things about their character I so
because you can't really write from an abstract place just oh he's a guy
I like that the questionnaire that's great how can a screenwriter create a
hero that we want to follow I keep saying the same thing but it's for me
that you find you start with the characters a really strong emotional
want and I feel like we take any any
successful film critically acclaimed film it's always character that has that
strong emotional want whether it's a in mention with the wrestler that my
upbringing I have nothing in common with a wrestler the nut boys don't cry a
million dollar yeah baby baby I don't have anything in common with a
white-trash girl who wants to box but boy did she have a want yeah and so
that's and I don't mean to say that in a I'm trying to say the opposite that so
I'm not trying to make a judgment or be snobby I'm saying that a great film has
a character with a strong emotional want that no matter what our upbringing our
race we can identify and relate to that character the the protagonist and Barry
Jenkins film moonlight I don't know what it's like to grow up as a young black
gay man in Miami but we can all relate to feeling like an outsider at some
point in our lives wanting to be accepted having very extraordinarily
difficult situations and there was such beauty in the way this character was
able to persevere and overcome and then it was also told structurally in a very
interesting manner and again there is an example where that didn't follow what a
lot of people would say is a you know the classic Syd field or Bob McKee
structure it was told almost like three more I would say oh not quite Faulkner
but there was a novelistic approach to it I think you can break structure
when you're when you understand it to begin with and you're here you're
hitting everything else really right so writing authentic characters compelling
dialogue compelling situations and it is well structured so but I do feel it's
like tapping into that thing that we as humans want and can identify with and
what are universal flaws that that a character may have switching gears just
a tiny bit have you ever not taken on a project and for what reasons all the
time I mean most of the time and that's the fact that what most writers are
faced with that it is a game of mostly rejections and I know as a producer I
feel like if I wind up optioning a project writers have bent a lot of odds
to have someone decide they want to option the project I then have to try
and go and sell it I had a project once where it took me a year and I sent it to
every single it was a network to like every single network and this was a time
when you had to wait the protocol was you couldn't take it somewhere else
until you heard back today you can do multiple submissions but that was a
protocol back then and it was the last network that I took it to and the head
of the network who's very well respected industry individual the executive showed
us his comment what they would do is the executives would every month they would
gather the top tiers of projects that they've read and liked and they would
give it to their boss he would read it on the weekend ours came back and we had
been rejected like 12 places but I always knew it was a good story and a
lot of the rejections were that it just doesn't fit into our mandate we're not
doing this type of story right now and anyway he wrote in the margin this is a
good story so I a genuine once said that all it takes is
one yes now it's also fine balance because if
you were getting no no no no no consistently with feedback that like the
feedback that I was getting lesson this isn't a good story it was this isn't the
right project for us right now or we have something similar to this if you're
getting feedback where someone says and I never heard this quite a bit I like
the concept I didn't love the execution and I can elaborate on that or I I
really like the concept but I didn't love the protagonist I didn't feel that
character was developed enough and that's why I'm very tenacious when
working with writers before taking it out because I know what the odds are I
mean obviously a lot of writers know the odds but a lot of writers will say well
I see stuff get made all the time that's not very good we don't know the
circumstances of how and why that project got made if it went through too
many revisions and it lost its center it went through different regime changes
nobody starts out trying to make a bad movie with the exception of one I can
think of and takes pride and it's been a huge hit and a cult hit because there
are two movies I can reference one because it's out right now the the
disaster artist well but even that guy didn't start out to make a bad movie and
it obviously developed a cult following because of its uniqueness that way but
the you know no one is when people say oh but there are writers who get stuff
me and it's not very good I feel it's such a poor model to even reference
because so should that be your model that like okay well my movie doesn't
have to be perfect I don't care if it's that great other people's can get made
no my feeling is that you need to make sure that it's at the absolutely best
level it can be and and and if you do get consistent
feedback where people are saying I'm just not loving the character enough and
then I think you need to go back to your script and then talk to your buddies in
the industry whose opinions you respect and say do me a favor will you take a
look at this again let me know what you think maybe I could make better maybe
going to workshop it definitely do your research to see because you know which
would I think there are some workshops that are better than others and you can
do your due diligence by talking to fellow writers who maybe have taken a
particular workshop what they've gotten out of it what the results have been
like and or of course work with you know a script consultant other industry
colleagues like I mentioned assistant if you you're starting out you may know
assistants who work for agents or production companies or studios and have
them read it and give you feedback do we have a lot of screenwriters in their 20s
that watch our videos and they're just starting out and they're in an early
stage of their writing careers is there any advice you can give to them oh sure
luck they've won I think one of the best tips is it was I I heard a female runner
say when she came out to LA she spent the first year reading every single
pilot that had been picked up that she could get her hands on and that could
and also maybe reading pilots of series from a couple years ago I do feel that's
when I certainly Shakespeare for me was one of my best teachers just
understanding how well-defined his characters were the dialogue and the
conflicts and they you know the characters needs and wants and what gets
in their way and I mean it the stakes you don't get bigger than Shakespeare
with Macbeth or Hamlet and so I there are great teachers and great
Matthew one or we you can watch Mad Men absolutely you know you can watch a lot
of series but there is something about seeing the written word the other thing
is an exercise and I think this is a very powerful exercise and might not
seem like fun but it can be fun is to watch if your I did this actually when I
was in my 20s starting out officer and a gentleman and this is before you could
download scripts on the internet I did I watched the whole movie and I wrote down
as I was watching it what each scene was so I had to pause a lot but in what it
does is it really helps you understand and get a feel for rhythm and structure
almost through osmosis through that process of doing it and the point of
doing it isn't so you can go and you're not plagiarizing or copying it's to get
you to just understand rhythms of scenes and how they flow from one to the next
and what and you you can see when you're doing it okay whereas what's the act one
the Act one break usually it's supposed to be around page 27 in a feature so you
see where that kind of flows when you're copying you know a script and if you
don't have to do every single line baby okay Richard Richard Gere's with his
father they wake up right after they've had an evening of debauchery and hookers
and Richard Gere's now off to to training camp in the military then the
next scene and I don't remember exactly but let's say the next scene is he's on
a bus and we see exterior they did the facility then next scene maybe we see
Debra Winger as a waitress I don't remember everything so forgive me but it
also gets you into the understanding and the that screenwriter is a wonderful
screenwriter the it gets you into seeing how when I was talking about not
including the dull bits you could see beautiful juxtapositions like he's off
to the military and then maybe the next thing he's in line and being asked to
salute and it's just it's a wonderful exercise this woman who has became a
successful writer in television she read pilot so if you feel like you're want to
be a half-hour person and if you want to do multicam and you feel like NBC CBS
ABC style sit comes or your thing which are multicam versus single-camera
which is more like Aziz Ansari and the marvelous mrs. Mazal master of none then
get those scripts read them see how they introduce the characters see how
distinct all the voices are they're so distinct and these will be some of your
best teachers continuing on with advice for the the 20-something year old
writers that we get feedback from I think you mentioned that you went to see
the writer Jorge Luis Borges speak yes and that he said I'm finally getting
better and it was 80-some yes right no cuz this is something that happens a lot
writers will say well when will it be ready when will it be ready what or it's
ready it's ready and I have a client who I love dearly and we worked very closely
together and I many many drafts ago she said okay this is it this is the final
draft and I'm like I would love for it to be the final draft I don't want it's
not late and I mean I do with consulting but it's not like I want my biggest
baileywick if you will or heyday is to have a really strong script that I can
take out to the market and get set up with a production company studio network
etc and so I'm reading it and she one of the things we had changed the location
from overseas to New York and we changed one of the characters from an Italian to
a New York Italian and she changed his name so I think he was Giovanni and then
he became so when I was reading that script the
character she kept going back and forth with the name and that's just a very
simple fix but you know here's someone saying it's final and I wanted to be
final and it wasn't you know a hundred percent perfect yet just even on a very
cosmetic level so the notion of and when you brought up jorge luis borges that i
was in college and he came to our campus and spoke and he was in his I think he
was about 82 and he was going blind and he said Here I am and then going blind
I'm 82 and I feel like I am just now getting good at my craft and here was a
man who received some of the highest literary honors you can get and it was
inspiring and when I see younger writers saying you know well it it's done it or
it's good enough for it and any writer at any age can really say that I feel
like any time I've watched on some of the talk show interviews with
best-selling book authors amazing directors screenwriters very often when
they speak now they say it's taken them seven years so I feel like and when I
see someone like bohr Hayes speak the way he did if people who are such
masters it's taking them like seven years or more
or in the case of bore case a lifetime to just feel like he's getting good
then we need to relish enjoy soak up the process of continuing to get better and
better and better so that's and I I mean anyone we greatly respect whether today
if it's Aaron Sorkin or Jason Reitman they all say that you know they go
through multiple I mean I mean I think it's like gone through
3040 drops on some of his projects and with the Aaron Sorkin I don't remember
how many like he does but I also did hear him say once that it takes him it
takes him anywhere from a year to 18 months to deliver a first draft he's
turning over and over the characters and so I feel like if these great masters
who really have excelled in their fields in their craft if it takes them so long
why do we think that if we're just starting out that we should be able to
do it sooner and I'm offer if it can happen soon
great but the process is the process right and Jason is of a generation where
they want things faster yes so that that's very telling in that sense
because I feel like now everything's so sped up and instantaneous that it
heightens all that you know you hear on Twitter and see all this stuff about
this person's just been discovered but we don't realize we don't realize and
I've heard also with some great writers being interviewed you know people say oh
they just wrote it one or two drafts and then when you hear them speak they say
that it was they did multiple drafts I just feel like basically there really
aren't shortcuts I do think there's an anomaly maybe someone can write
something and it just everything's aligned and the muse and the ability and
it just flows out of you and I think that can't happen but it really is an
anomaly most of the time they're things require more and more refinement and
craft it kind of goes back to what you said earlier about the female showrunner
who's achieved great success but she says people want the outcome but they
probably wouldn't want to do all the hours and and all the probably late
nights behind a computer stressing over some little deal yeah yeah and I think
that's a huge thing people don't see some of that work that
it's true and and they just want the faster around and it's human nature
nobody want to have to put it exactly but it's true this is a common question
I ask but it usually ends up having great results and that is of your IMDB
credits which one whether it was a short TV series whatever which one taught you
the most and why without naming of course sure object I feel like each one
has taught me and it's really from the people that I worked with that I learned
so one of the things I feel like my first job I worked for a producer I felt
was a master at cultivating interest in projects um so he knew how to generate
interest and position and I learned in cases where I might have missed out on a
project by not being assertive enough and I say one project which I sold and
it was such a great high I was it was at a time when I was told that it was at a
particular network that they had spent their financing for the fiscal year and
we had an option on the book and it was about to be up and that also it was a
period piece and they said we're not doing period we're not doing period and
I won't saying but this reads to the president of the production company this
wreath so hipped the sweets so contemporary most women today would die
to do what this girl did back then and I would my boss actually said to me after
that you know be careful you shouldn't be so boisterous you know with the
president anyway to make a long story short I wound up speaking to the network
to where we had a deal and got the president of the company and hurt VP's
all on board and they wound up optioning the book and it was a series so there
were gonna be three books sadly there was a regime change after we started the
process and we did get a first script and
the new regime decided that they didn't want to do it again and that happens in
the business and it's unfortunate but it is part of the business and hopefully
you just continue to build on the successes and you're always going to
have failures you learn from your failures I mean that case sometimes
there are things outside of one's control but what I learned there was to
have the courage of my convictions I remember there was an executive at the
EBC who had said to his group and they did really wonderful programming if
we're going to fail I want us to fail big because we tried not fail because we
were scared and if you look at any network and breakout shows they were
taking risks and going against the grain and whether it was married with children
at the time x-files was on there was nothing like that and then everybody
wanted to copy and do something like x-files and the and I remember the sell
of x-files was the head of the network saying to Chris Carter I just want you
to do what you really want to do so that was brave for the executive in hindsight
we can all say that's fine but he was really encouraging the pure voice and
creativity of that particular writer and boy when you you know can follow your
vision and your passion and you have combined with the talent to deliver and
the support and the right studio behind you can really deliver something that's
iconic and you you know becomes part of the our pop culture and everything the
going back to the so what I had learned so I really felt strongly because of
that reward that I would always follow the courage of my convictions so I think
it's really important to do that with other movies I would say I learned from
a really intelligent boss writer director who's no longer with us that
just not to have a lazy mind and never go for the easy solution he was
rated with development and when what other stories we had and I learned so
much from him was to really look at the authenticity of how a character would
behave and not just go for the obvious easy generic solution so that really
taught me I think to be diligent and try and find the unexpected behavior in
characters and so anyway - I could be here for a long time but I have I've
learned from really I think our greatest teachers are working with other people
who who are good at what they do what does writing a marketable
screenplay mean great question probably one of my favorite questions I often say
that you can have a great idea super high concept and I think I referenced
previously I've heard story ideas that go oh my god that is great I want option
before I even read it and then I read it and it's not well executed so if you
have a great concept that's not well executed chances are that it will not
sell if you have a high concept that is well executed you have a much better
chance of a getting salt conversely you can have a project that is totally not
high concept but if it is beautifully executed it then becomes marketable so
for example if we take a movie like Juno and I'll define high concept high
concept is The Hangover a bunch of guys you know from the movie poster I mean a
lot of people I know a lot of your audience knows what high concept is but
there are those who don't and it's terminology we use lawrence basically
where the concept is very big and immediately recognizable like from a
movie poster so the hangover and it's the guys are you know we all know it's
the hangover in its vegas you can tell from the movie poster and they all look
like they're Iraq and it's the 48 hours before bachelor is to
walk down the aisle at his bachelor party they go to Vegas and I his friends
lose him and they have now fort and don't have any recollection what
happened the night before and have 48 hours to find him before the wedding
that's one example of big big concept speed is a big concept anything that's
based on a brand like transformers it has a immediately recognizable built-in
audience brand value so the opposite of that would be a movie like Slumdog
Millionaire in fact most of the movies that when the Oscars are not high
concept Slumdog Millionaire Million Dollar Baby okay if you were to pitch
this I'm gonna do a you know not justice to the movie but if you think about it
like trying to get a studio to but this is a story about a girl who comes from
trailer park and she wants to be a boxer and she's mentored by this older dude
and she wants up getting entering herself to the point where she becomes
paralyzed on the way down and she paralyzed from the waist down and
basically asks him as an act of kindness to do euthanasia so she does okay who
would buy that nah you know Slumdog Millionaire this is was a great story
movie no known act American actor but you did have a an a-list director Danny
Boyle so that is what definitely helped get it made and it was also based on a
book swing blade another one magnificently written script and some of
these movies would definitely be harder to get done today but the you take Juno
you you know family drama teenage girl gets pregnant I mean really that used to
be like an after-school special or and no disrespect you know more of a TV
movie than a feature that would build such a big following
this year ladybird you know that's not a high concept rite of passage with the
young girl and but it was so well written and it resonated so much with
people the mother-daughter relationship the notion of growing up in a small town
and so the what makes a script marketable the script like Juno and with
Lady Bird the the quality of the writing the freshness of the characters the
truthfulness of the characters that then becomes marketable so that comes down to
me saying we write your best work I don't know any executives other people
may I don't know any executives who have optioned a script if they didn't care
for the dialogue the writing they didn't think it was I mean structure maybe is
the least offensive you know I hate I can be a good idea and maybe the
structure is not great but there the the characters are compelling the
situation's compelling and the dialogue is good and I just don't know anyone who
buy scripts if those elements aren't there so therefore I think if you are
gonna make a profession as a screenwriter it's not an easy profession
at all you have to roll up your sleeves and really get in there and I I read I
mean I'm working right now with someone who just graduated from film school and
it's quite his his writings were really good there are some elements that I
think needed to be much more pronounced what the underlying theme is and the
purpose of the journey and some things that didn't track what the character is
but there's a lot of talent there but I didn't think it's ready quite to take
out yet but he's doing some work now and he'll get there I mean there's there's a
there's a lot of talent and there's a lot of there's a lot of writing that we
isn't very strong and I think the biggest death to a writer is to is to
not be able to take notes well and I don't mean just any notes to be open to
constructive feedback and to want to put in their dues so I think that's the
biggest killer as well as trying to please too many people and not listening
to your own inner voice and I just say in terms of marketability what gets
agents attention producers studio networks is ace is it that you'll hear a
strong voice that there's something really fresh about a person has a point
of view and that the character writing the Quentin Tarantino is such a strong
voice and I would say that Greta Gerwig you know as a strong voice and we could
go on but I can't think of it their names but you know in even what's going
back to Lady Bird or just just briefly we went to see the post and
unfortunately the movie didn't play so we all had to leave the theatre but I
talked to a man who was maybe in his late 50s and he said he loved Lady Bird
so here's someone that it's not even really you would think that wouldn't be
the audience right but he said and he was recommending it to the people he was
with and we were kind of talking about it so you can see how he somehow
resonated with that voice and I mean it's a great scent the truthfulness of
that mother-daughter relationship which wasn't pretty
you know how they got in each other's faces and talked to each other but it's
was truthful and we know that they they did love each other and you know so
touching towards latter part of the movie when the mother who was really
kind of you know really tough with her daughter and the daughter didn't feel
like she really loved her even liked her and then we saw that she was trying to
write a letter to her and crumbled it up like 30 times that's a that's another
form of love versus this would be the boring
way of doing it and not so truthful to the human experience would be well you
know I love you maybe I'm hard on you but maybe I'm doing it for your own good
or maybe have my own issues so I'm not really able to love that well versus the
simple beautiful act that she was crumpling up letters because she want to
find the right words and couldn't that says so much more than anything that's
on the nose and obvious writing the whole part of coming from a smaller town
even though it's California's capital but there is a a small-town feel to
Sacramento for anybody who's driven through it and and wanting to like
really reinvent herself yes you know she didn't want to go by her given name they
wanted to be a writer on the East Coast right it wasn't okay to to be a writer
from California you know and and just wanting to reinvent her and I think
everyone can identify with versus you know no and so that's just really
wonderful writing versus I want to I want to be a writer I'm tired of being
in the small town I want to reinvent myself you know so that's that's what
although that's such a good example of why you know some people say would they
get the feedback about not to write expositionally what do you mean white
people can talk about like what you don't like people to be direct sure
there's a time and place and sometimes people are direct but most of the time
they're circling trying to figure out their lives who they are and so on and
that was a very beautiful example of that yeah I agree
so we've had a good two and a half three hours here sometimes I'm in a time warp
when I do these interviews but we've gotten incredibly valuable information
Wendy as we wrap up I would love to hear a success story and if you could just do
us a favor maybe just leave out identifying information that's kind of a
rule we have here sure I don't courage okay so let's see I think well or a
couple one would be from something that was quite a while ago that I had read a
a play by a writer and I was so enamored of the story it was main and it was on
CBS and it was called it wound up being called Sally Hemings an American scandal
and what I love about the story is that she had written it and I had first found
out about it I think it was either seven or nine years before it got made and all
say is that the stars were aligned and it was the fact that what happened was I
came close to selling it within the first two years so they had the project
it was under option I think when I was at Hearst entertainment and came close
but didn't sell it and then one day the writer and I read in the trades that
merchant ivory had a seldom movie called Jefferson in Paris with Nick Nolte and
the two of us and this happens in the business and it invariably I mean it
will happen stevarino I have two projects actually where there are other
competing projects in the marketplace and we're trying to get our stunt first
but anyway so the writer and I we were quite despondent and then was like
alright life goes on and one foot friend the other and you keep you know what's
the next project and you put your focus there but I never forgot how much I
loved that script and so Merchant Ivory movie was made and two years later I
felt like I would hear opportunities in network television where they were
interested in doing they were doing period pieces and you would haul me
which was a big producer at the time doing lots of period films for Network
and so every couple of years I would think maybe there's a different audience
that we could get and reach with them you know TV and I would seek
opportunities and I would call up the writer and I would say is that script
still available and she'd say yes and one of those times seven years later she
said yes as a matter of fact such-and-such actress I was having lunch
with her manager and we talked about and she might be interested in playing the
role so I wanted calling up CBS and saying we don't have a you know
commitment but we have preliminary interest from so-and-so and she said
we'll send it over and it was originally written as a two hour movie and the
network came back and said you know what we think we might be interested in
turning it into a miniseries but instead of making it so much about Thomas
Jefferson we'd like to make it more much more Sally Hemings point of view so we
did we rolled up our sleeves we spent a month working with her preparing an
outline to bring to the network so we could show what the end of night one was
that would ensure people there was enough of a cliffhanger that people
would come back for a night too so we could justify yes this is enough
material for a miniseries and the day we wind up going in to pitch two days
before it wound up hitting front page of New York Times Wall Street Journal
iving Time magazine that they hadn't done tests finally conclusively with
Thomas Jefferson and concluded from the DNA that he in fact did have a long-term
relationship with Sally Hemings and that they did have five children together so
all of our competitors were saying oh my god you guys were so smart to be on it
and in the network two days after little did they know that this was had started
about nine years earlier and as some mature a lot of us have heard this
expression but it is a very good one that success is when preparedness meets
opportunity so if we didn't have though if I hadn't
fallen in love with this piece if the writer hadn't written this wonderful
piece if in fact I I hadn't like continued every two years to inquire and
see if there was a new opportunity then you know it would and if we didn't do
our homework - really we spent a month to go in and I've seen very good writers
who have blown deals when they don't prepare enough you said something that
caught my ear and I just wanted to follow up and that is you've seen
writers blow a deal because they weren't prepared so are they not prepared to
know what the the genre that this network is is used to dealing with
actually it's biting more with sometimes if you have a script it can sell itself
but other times maybe you have a pitch I mean I've seen very very like
established writers go in a room and because they haven't prepared the pitch
really well and it kind of meanders and it could be a really good story but it I
really am a big any advocate of preparing and I reminded of seeing a lot
of people probably don't know Whoopi Goldberg when she started out she was an
absolutely brilliant comedian and she when I I saw her at a charity event and
man she killed it on stage and for her to be there's no question that Genie
certain geniuses and comedy your great ad libbing and this and that but they're
also for her to be and with most of the great comics they look so spontaneous
they work their butts off rehearsing and rehearsing to be able to deliver so
smoothly so I do think it's important for you if you're going to be pitching a
project to to be prepared and that's what we as producers had to do when we
were pitching the Sally Hemings piece and it's what I do all the time and when
I'm working with writers and we're going to go in and pitch is you know we have
to do the work why do you think an established writer wouldn't prepare a
pitch like that I think maybe took for granted or that had an attitude of well
I'll just wing it and these are people who are very articulate but I also would
say the times have we changed where I know like a former
boss of mine the network used to just go to him and say why don't you do a
project about such-and-such topic and if what now it just doesn't it just doesn't
work like that very established writers need to also like even if you're I'm
sure and I can't speak for him but like Ryan Murphy when he sells one of his
projects I'm sure that he has to at some point tell the network what they're
gonna be seeing per our purse you know the first hour the first night of a
miniseries we're going to be covering such and such part of the OJ trial and
then I'm there you're going to talk about your approach it's mostly so I
think that maybe taking for granted or assuming well I'll just wing it or
ad-lib it but I think it's you need to prepare and then the packaging again is
something you said people are looking at so that means having talent attached
writing crew attached so for example house of cars when it sold to Netflix
you had David Fincher one of the preeminent contemporary directors who
hadn't yet done series that was really attractive it was also material was
based on the book and a hit series in the UK Kevin Spacey who was a big star
at the time was also attached so that's like an ideal package a lot of the
marvelous mrs. Mazal that's the writing team that did the gilmore girls which
was very successful in its original form and then when it came back to Netflix
was also very successful so they knew that they had proven entities with a
strong voice and who can deliver really a successful show with really well drawn
character isn't situations consistently so that's kind of like the sort of
there's some element that's proven entity and/or really appealing it
could be someone who has just done a movie at Sundance that garnered a lot of
attention and they come in and again it's a thing about recognizing or that
someone has a strong voice and it's harder to break into without you know
having that first like when if you've already won some award at Sundance yes
it's easier to get Netflix attention but how do you get that first award at
Sundance it's because you have there's something
fresh in your material yeah and I remember just a serious at HBO where
they wound up hiring completely unestablished writers and trying to get
the name of the show but they had written a play that wasn't even produced
but they fell in love with the writing in their voice and then they the the
these that's writing team pitched the series and it became like it had of I
think five seasons on HBO Wendy and hearing what packaging means I think it
sounds great if you're established but for a new writer is that something they
should even be worried about thinking about striving for I think that again
the first thing a new writer should concern themselves with is writing a
really really good script I do think and I'm sure there are producers also who
you know come to film courage I feel like when I hear a story so if someone
ever like a writers that I've been working with who is also a documentary
filmmaker and he did a story and he showed me a few clips and I was like oh
my god this is so moving this is this is an amazing story and immediately I could
see that the character whose story this was based on would be a great role to
attract a leading actor so immediately I'm thinking
I'm thinking big names now that then helps me sell it and promote it if I
like let's say call CAA and I say I create a good compelling log line and I
say and it's a great vehicle for a leading actor and they might include
some prototypes they go great send that over because everybody is usually there
are exceptions but looking for something that's going to attract a star whether
it's a female leaning actress or a male leaning actor and I felt that this and
true stories very often it's a really good source to attract a leading actor
so I think if I mean the first priority is writing a good story I think with
screenwriters some and some screenwriters so they know they
definitely think of a prototype when they're writing it like they might here
was a renegade I see Marisa Tomei and the role and that can help their process
I feel anyone who gets too attached to the outcome before you've done the
process is probably not a good way to go and the with in the cases that say more
with producers or if you're a writer and you don't yet have a have a script on a
particular subject but you've optioned a true story or maybe they've written an
article that appears in a magazine and it can tell itself because there have
been stories option or turned into movies from newspaper articles I think
boys don't cry mean we know it was a true story the first time I became aware
of it I actually had read it in a magazine and I wanted to option I tried
to get the rights and sell it and I was not able to at the time I was primarily
focused on network and it was a little too edgy for a regular network anyway
she but that that was did come from an article as well as they said a true
story Argo was a true story also was an article which I think may have been that
jumping-off point for the it capturing the imagination of Cluny
anytime if you have something that's an article and if it's a tree story and you
can it just it you can you can sell true stories very often without having a
script yet so if you're a screenwriter that is something to think about if
there's a true story that you like and you might think oh gee this is a could
be a great vehicle for you know any number of young actresses or offers a
great role for male lead in his 40s so I think it's always wise to think about it
but not the cart before the horse where that becomes necessary the dominant idea
I but in the case of let's say if the writer producer has optioned the rights
to a true story then they would go out and start trying to package so it would
be about trying to get it in the hands of a production company that has greater
access and leverage and ability to reach out to agents to attach an actor
director and so on the also they can try to get to an agent I do coaching with
with those who are not represented to help them get through the gatekeepers
and through certain bypass certain industry protocols in order to get their
material seen there's ways that you can pitch that can entice someone even if
you don't yet have an agent does that answer the question about like packaging
yeah I think so yeah I would say generally ideally you if you can get it
to a production company they are going to be in a better position to try to
attach those key elements and so if someone says well you know we don't take
unsolicited material right then doing it through someone like you who could help
kind of procure that or also saying well then
we do what did you say that Oh dad I'm like they said we don't take unsolicited
material that they the writer/producer you can say alright well can I sign a
submission release form can you send that to me and then they should show it
to their entertainment attorney right a lot of writers don't like to sign them
but it is an industry standard if you're not represented and it's and that's why
you should have an attorney take a look but it is it is fairly standard but I do
understand why it's a catch-22 right so yeah because if they don't do it they
might not be able to submit their project and I know for myself sometimes
I've had to do them and there's some depending on the language that I won't
sign and others that I will and that's where the attorney to review yeah you
can't just go online and also just for a bit because I'm not an entertainment
area so I'm not telling someone oh you know dude go do this definitively they
should go see an expert in that field unless they're themselves very
experienced at reading those kinds of documents but generally yes have an
entertainment attorney look
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