♪ [THEME MUSIC] ♪
JIM: HI THERE.
I'M JIM ZIRIN.
WELCOME BACK FOR MORE
CONVERSATIONS.
WITH US IS THE GIFTED WRITER,
KEN AULETTA, AUTHOR OF 10 BOOKS.
FEATURED COLUMNIST FOR YOU
NAME IT. THE NEW YORKER.
THE VILLAGE VOICE.
NEW YORK MAGAZINE.
AND CONSUMMATE PROFILER OF
THE LIKES OF BARRY DILLER,
BILL GATES, RUPERT MURDOCH
AND MICHAEL BLOOMBERG.
IN 1978, KEN AULETTA WROTE IN
A PROFILE IN ESQUIRE MAGAZINE
OF ROY COHN, THE CHIEF COUNCIL
TO SENATOR JOSEPH MCCARTHY,
MASTER OF THE SMEAR OF THE RED
SCARE IN THE 1950'S.
AND LATER A PUGNACIOUS AND
EMBATTLED ATTORNEY, THE TARGET
OF THREE FEDERAL INDICTMENTS.
COHN WAS A MENTOR TO HIS CLIENT
AND FRIEND, DONALD TRUMP, AND
TUTORED HIM ON THE IMPORTANCE OF
ENTERTAINMENT, THE DARK SIDE OF
POLITICS, AND MANIPULATION OF
THE MEDIA. COHN HAD A
BULLYING NATURE YET ALWAYS
CONSIDERED HIMSELF A VICTIM.
KEN AULETTA'S ESQUIRE PIECE
WAS REPUBLISHED 38 YEARS
LATER DURING THE
PRESIDENTIAL RACE, IT IS
INFORMING INSIGHTS INTO TRUMP'S
CHARACTER AND WITH HOW HE
COMPOSES HIMSELF IN THE WHITE
HOUSE REMAIN RELEVANT TODAY.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
KEN: GOOD TO BE HERE.
JIM: HOW DID YOU GET INTERESTED
IN ROY COHN?
KEN: I WAS WRITING A COLUMN FOR
"THE DAILY NEWS."
I WAS CO-HOSTING A WEEKLY SHOW
ON CHANNEL 13.
I HAD JUST STARTED WRITING FOR
THE NEW YORKER.
COVERING NEW YORK, WHICH IS WHAT
I MOSTLY DID FOR THE "DAILY
NEWS," I KEPT ENCOUNTERING THE
FACT THAT ROY COHN WAS A
POWERBROKER IN NEW YORK.
I WAS CURIOUS ABOUT HOW THAT
CAME ABOUT.
HE WAS A PARTNER OF STANLEY
FRIEDMAN WHO WAS A BRONX
COUNTY DEMOCRATIC
LEADER IN A LAW PRACTICE.
HE HAD POWERFUL FRIENDS OVER THE
YEARS. BILL FUGAZY HE GREW
UP WITH.
CY NEWHOUSE HE GREW UP WITH.
RICHARD HURST, THE HEAD OF-
RICHARD BERLIN, HEAD OF HURST
HE GREW UP WITH.
JIM: POPE WAS THE PUBLISHER OF
THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER.
HE FOUNDED THE NATIONAL
ENQUIRER.
KEN: AND ROY COHN WITH HIS
FRIEND MANAGED TO EITHER
KILL OR GET STORIES IN THE
NATIONAL ENQUIRER.
JIM: WE SEE THAT BY THE
NATIONAL ENQUIRER TODAY?
KEN: I WAS FASCINATED WHO ROY
COHN WAS AND HOW HE WAS ABLE TO
COME BACK FROM DISGRACE IN A
LIBERAL CITY LIKE NEW YORK, EVEN
THOUGH HE HAS BEEN DISGRACED
REPRESENTING A RIGHT-WING
SENATOR AND HOW HE WAS A
POWERBROKER.
I SET OUT TO PROFILE HIM.
HE FIRST SAID HE WOULD NOT
COOPERATE.
I PROCEEDED TO STARTED CALLING
PEOPLE WHO KNEW HIM AND STANLEY
FRIEDMAN, I KNEW HIM OVER THE
YEARS.
I SAID TO STANLEY FRIEDMAN, LOOK
I DON'T THINK IT IS ROY COHN'S
INTERESTS FOR ME TO BE TALKING
JUST TO HIS ADVERSARIES.
THAT IS WHO I AM TALKING TO NOW
AND WHOEVER WOULD TALK TO ME.
I THINK HE SHOULD TALK TO ME.
WITHIN A HALF AN HOUR ROY COHN
CALLED ME AND WE WERE ON OUR
WAY.
I SPENT AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF
TIME WITH HIM OVER THE NEXT
SEVERAL WEEKS.
JIM: HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU MEET
WITH THEM?
KEN: I MET WITH HIM AND HAD
LUNCH IS AND FOLLOWED HIM IN
COURT CASES AND DID INTERVIEWS.
I DID ABOUT 12 HOURS OF TAPED
INTERVIEWS WITH HIM.
JIM: IN THE COURSE OF YOUR
RESEARCH, DID YOU MEET DONALD
TRUMP?
KEN: I INTERVIEWED DONALD TRUMP
ONCE OR TWICE.
JIM: IN CONNECTION WITH COHN?
KEN: IN CONNECTION WITH COHN.
WHAT YOU DID WAS TRY TO FIND OUT
WHO HIS MOST IMPORTANT
CLIENTS WERE.
THERE WERE PEOPLE LIKE
BESS MEYERSON AND ALSO
PEOPLE LIKE DONALD TRUMP.
SO I CALLED DONALD TRUMP AND
ASKED HIM ABOUT ROY COHN.
I FOUND OUT THE STORY OF HOW
THEY MET AND WHAT
ROY COHN DID FOR DONALD TRUMP
AS A LAWYER.
JIM: HOW DID HE MEET DONALD
TRUMP?
KEN: THEY HAD MITCHELL-
LAMA HOUSING PROJECTS,
WHICH IS WHERE THE
FATHER MADE HIS MONEY IN
BOTH BROOKLYN AND QUEENS.
THEY WERE BEING SUED BY THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FOR HOUSING
DISCRIMINATION, SAYING THEY WERE
DELIBERATELY NOT RENTING TO
MINORITIES IN ORDER TO KEEP IT
ALL WHITE.
DONALD TRUMP WENT TO ROY COHN
WHO HE HAD BEEN REFERRED TO AS A
KILLER LAWYER, SOMEONE WHO WOULD
FIGHT TO THE DEATH ON BEHALF OF
HIS CLIENTS.
HE BROUGHT THE CASE TO COHN AND
TOLD HIM WHAT IT WAS.
JIM: HE MET THEM IN A BAR,
DIDN'T HE?
KEN: I NEVER WENT TO THE CLUB.
IT IS NO LONGER THERE,
OBVIOUSLY.
THEY DID MEET THERE.
DONALD WAS A MAN ABOUT TOWN AND
WAS A BACHELOR AND LIKE TO HANG
OUT WHERE MODELS WOULD GO,
PLACES LIKE FRIDAYS AND
MAXWELL'S PLUM.
COHN APPARENTLY WENT TO THE
CLUB AND THAT IS WHERE DONALD
MET HIM.
ROY SAID LET'S MEET AND TALK
ABOUT THIS. DONALD
TRUMP BROUGHT THE CASE, AND
COHN DID WHAT HE ALWAYS DID WAS
SAID, DON'T WORRY ABOUT A THING,
YOU ARE GOING TO BEAT THIS CASE
AND WE WILL KILL THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT.
JIM: COHN DIDN'T GO TO A CLUB
LOOKING FOR MODELS, HE WAS GAY.
DID YOU ASK HIM IF HE WAS GAY?
KEN: I DID.
I DIDN'T PRINT IT, I WILL TELL
YOU WHAT HAPPENED.
COHN WAS A GUY WHO WAS BLACK
AND WHITE. EVERYTHING WAS VERY
SIMPLE. IT WAS EITHER BLACK
OR WHITE. YES OR NO.
WHEN I ASKED HIM THE QUESTION OF
THE CITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION AT
THE TIME, SHOULD YOU RECOGNIZE
GAY MARRIAGE?
AND I ASKED ROY COHN,
WE WERE SITTING IN HIS
BROWNSTONE DRINKING COFFEE.
JIM: HE WORKED OUT OF HIS ON
68TH STREET.
KEN: HE CAME DOWNSTAIRS IN A
PINK ROBE.
JIM: PINK ROBE AND PAJAMAS?
KEN: I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE HAD ON
UNDER THE ROBE, I DIDN'T LOOK.
HE CAME DOWN FOR BREAKFAST, AND
I SAID, MR. COHN, HOW DO YOU
FEEL ABOUT THE CITY COUNCIL
RESOLUTION ON GAYS?
FOR THE FIRST TIME, HE DIDN'T
SAY HE WAS AGAINST IT OR FOR IT.
HE SAID IT IS A COMPLICATED
ISSUE.
ON THE ONE HAND, THERE IS THIS
ARGUMENT.
ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE IS
COUNTER ARGUMENT.
HE DID NOT COME OUT WITH A CLEAR
POSITION.
I LOOKED AT HIM AND SAID, MR.
COHN, ARE YOU GAY?
NORMALLY, HE WOULD ANSWER VERY
QUICKLY ANY QUESTION.
HE PAUSED A LONG PERIOD OF TIME
AND THEN SAID, I DON'T KNOW WHY
THAT IS A RELEVANT QUESTION.
HE NEVER ANSWERED THE
QUESTION.
I NEVER WROTE THAT I ASKED IT
AND IT WAS NEVER ANSWERED FOR
THE FOLLOWING REASON.
IF I DID THAT, THE ASKING OF THE
QUESTION IS TO ASSUME YOU ARE
GUILTY IF YOU ARE GAY.
THAT IS THE EXACT THING HE DID
IN THE MCCARTHY HEARINGS.
ARE YOU NOW OR HAVE YOU EVER
BEEN A COMMUNIST? THE
ASSUMPTION IS THAT IF SOMEONE
SIGNED UP TO THE COMMUNIST
PARTY IN THE 1920'S OR 1930'S,
THEY WERE AUTOMATICALLY A
TRAITOR TO THE UNITED STATES.
I DID NOT THINK THAT WAS FAIR TO
BE DOING.
I LOVED THE FACT THAT I MADE HIM
SUFFER, WHICH IS WHY I DID IT
AND WHY I DIDN'T PUBLISH IT.
JIM: IN THE PLAY, ANGELS IN
AMERICA, COHN IS PORTRAYED AS A
HYPOCRITE BECAUSE HE WAS A
CLOSETED GAY, AND HE WAS
CONSISTENTLY AGAINST GAY RIGHTS.
HE MADE ALMOST PROFANE ANTI-GAY
REMARKS FROM TIME TO TIME, AND
HE WAS SUPPOSEDLY ENGAGED TO
BARBARA WALTERS FOR A WHILE.
EVERYTHING WAS HIDDEN UNDER
THE RUG.
KEN: HE WAS A HYPOCRITE ON THAT.
HE LIVED A LIFE THAT ULTIMATELY
KILLED HIM.
HE HAD AIDS.
JIM: HE DIED FROM EIGHT IN 1986.
KEN: HE HUNG OUT AT A PLACE
CALLED UNCLE CHARLIE'S SOUTH
ON 2ND AVENUE IN THE 1930'S.
IT WAS A GAY BAR WITH VERY
YOUNG BOYS WHO WENT THERE, AND
HE WOULD HANG OUT THERE.
AND BARBARA WALTERS HE HAD
DATED BECAUSE HE REPRESENTED
HER FATHER.
HE CALLED HER UP AND THEIR FIRST
DATE WAS TO GO TO THE BRONX
COUNTY DEMOCRATIC DINNER.
THEY JUST BECAME FRIENDS.
ROY WAS NOT INTERESTED IN
WOMEN.
JIM: LET'S GO BACK TO THE RACIAL
DISCRIMINATION CASE.
I THINK TRUMP HAD TALKED TO A
NUMBER OF LAWYERS, AND THEY SAID
YOU OUGHT TO SETTLE THIS ONE AND
PROBABLY GET A SLAP ON THE WRIST
WHERE YOU NEITHER ADMIT OR
DENY THE CHARGES AND NOTHING
WILL HAPPEN.
COHN TOLD HIM HE OUGHT TO FIGHT.
WHAT WAS THE STRATEGY IN THE
CASE?
KEN: THIS WAS TYPICAL COHN AND
NOW HAS BECOME TYPICAL DONALD
TRUMP.
WHAT HE SAID IS YOU NEVER
APOLOGIZE, NEVER ADMIT YOU WERE
WRONG, YOU GO ON THE OFFENSIVE,
NEVER THE DEFENSIVE.
WHEN YOU THINK OF A DONALD TRUMP
AS PRESIDENT OR CANDIDATE, THAT
IS EXACTLY WHAT HE FOLLOWED.
WHAT COHN SAID TO HIM WAS YOU
DON'T SETTLE AND WE WILL SUE THE
BASTARDS AND WIN THIS CASE.
JIM: SO HE COUNTER CLAIMED
AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT.
FOR $100 MILLION.
KEN: WHICH IS TYPICAL AGAIN,
PUT THEM ON THE DEFENSE,
GO ON THE OFFENSE.
THAT WAS COHN'S PHILOSOPHY AS
A LAWYER.
IT BECAME DONALD TRUMP'S
PHILOSOPHY AS A BUSINESSMAN AND
POLITICIAN.
JIM: THE COUNTER CLAIM
WAS DISMISSED AND
AROUND THREE YEARS LATER, DO YOU
KNOW THE OUTCOME WAS?
KEN: THEY SETTLED.
JIM: WITHOUT ADMITTING OR
DENYING THE CHARGES.
KEN: WHEN IT WAS OUT OF THE
NEWS, IT WAS QUIETLY DONE.
JIM: HE CLAIMED VICTORY.
THAT WAS ANOTHER ROY COHN TRAIT,
EVEN IF YOU LOSE YOU CLAIM
VICTORY.
KEN: IT IS ALTERNATIVE FACTS.
JIM: NOW WE'RE SAYING TRUTH
DECAY.
KEN: YOU JUST CLAIM ANYTHING
YOU WANT. THAT'S WHAT DONALD
TRUMP SAID IN THE ART OF THE
DEAL. IT IS OK TO --
HYPERBOLE IS GOOD.
JIM: ALL THE WHILE SAYING THERE
WAS NO FINDING THAT HE HAD
DISCRIMINATED WHEN THE EVIDENCE
WAS QUITE OVERWHELMING.
KEN: HE DID THE SAME THING
DURING THE CAMPAIGN WITH TRUMP
UNIVERSITY.
HE SAID HE WAS GOING TO SUE
THEM AND VERY QUIETLY SETTLED
THE CASE.
IN THE END, HE PAID A
PENALTY.
JIM: HE PAID $25 MILLION.
HE SAID HE JUST DID THAT BECAUSE
HE WAS PRESIDENT AND DID NOT
HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO DEFEND THE
CASE.
YOU HAVE CALLED COHN THE
PERSONIFICATION OF EVIL.
WE'VE TALKED ABOUT WHO HE
WAS BUT WHAT WAS HE REALLY LIKE?
WHY WAS HE THE PERSONIFICATION
OF EVIL?
KEN: I NEVER INTERVIEWED IN THE
MANY PROFILES I HAVE DONE OVER
THE YEARS, I HAVE NEVER
INTERVIEWED OR SPENT TIME WITH A
MORE REVOLTING CHARACTER THAN
ROY COHN.
HE HAD NO REGARD FOR TRUTH.
HE HAD JUST REGARD FOR GETTING
OUT OF A HOLE HE WAS IN AND
SAYING WHATEVER HE HAD TO SAY TO
GET OUT OF THE HOLE.
IF YOU LOOK AT HIS BEHAVIOR IN
THE MCCARTHY HEARINGS, HE MADE
CHARGES AGAINST PEOPLE AND
DESTROYED LIVES.
JIM: THE ART OF THE SMEAR.
KEN: THE ART OF THE SMEAR,
AND HE DID THIS IN COURT AND
HE DID IT WITH GREAT JOY.
THE PIECE WAS CALLED THE
LEGAL EXECUTIONER.
I THOUGHT HE WOULD HATE THE
PIECE.
HE LOVED THE PIECE AT FIRST
BECAUSE IT WAS A CALLING CARD
FOR HIM.
JIM: GOOD FOR BUSINESS.
KEN: PEOPLE WILL HIRE ME TO KILL
HER HUSBAND OR SPOUSE OR KILL
THEIR BUSINESS PARTNER.
IT IS A CALLING CARD FOR ME.
HE CALLED ME UP AND ASKED HOW HE
COULD GET 500 COPIES.
JIM: BECAUSE HE WANTED TO GIVE
THEM TO HIS FRIENDS OR TAKE THEM
OUT?
KEN: HE WANTED TO GIVE THEM TO
HIS FRIENDS.
I REMEMBER THE FIRST TIME I SAT
WITH HIM -- TO ANSWER YOUR
QUESTION AS TO WHY HE WAS
EVIL.
I SAT WITH HIM AT LUNCH AT THE
21 CLUB, AND WE HAD A CHOICE
TABLE.
HE DID NOT ORDER FOOD.
I MUST HAVE HAD A HAMBURGER AND
FRENCH FRIES.
HE WOULD LITERALLY TAKE FRENCH
FRIES OFF OF MY PLATE AND FEED
HIMSELF.
I THOUGHT IT WAS KIND OF ODD AND
CERTAINLY UNUSUAL.
THEN HE WOULD LOOK AT HIS MANY
CLIENTS IN THE ROOM AND TO A
REPORTER LIKE ME, HE WOULD TELL
ME, SEE BESS MYERSON OVER
THERE, LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT HER
DIVORCE. LET ME TELL YOU WHAT
SHE DID. SO HE WAS TRADING
INFORMATION ON HIS CLIENTS
IN THE ROOM WHICH I THOUGHT
WAS UNETHICAL.
I DIDN'T WRITE ANY OF THAT.
I AM NOT A GOSSIP COLUMNIST.
I WAS APPALLED BY IT.
I THOUGHT, HOW DOES A MAN DO
THAT?
IT SUGGESTED TO ME THAT THIS MAN
WITH NO CORE SET OF
CONVICTIONS THAT HE WAS TRYING
TO IMPRESS ME.
JIM: YOU TALKED ABOUT HIS
ASSOCIATIONS WITH POWERFUL
POLITICAL FIGURES.
YOU OMITTED CARDINAL SPELLMAN
WHO WAS IN MANY WAYS A POLITICAL
FIGURE.
BUT HE ALSO HAD CLOSE TIES TO
THE MOB, ORGANIZED CRIME.
WERE YOU AWARE OF THAT WHEN YOU
DID THE INTERVIEW?
KEN: OH, YES.
IT WAS IN THE PROFILE.
JIM: A COUPLE OF DONS WERE ON
HIS SPEED DIAL.
KEN: PEOPLE HIRED HIM WHETHER
IT WAS THE MAFIA OR THE
CATHOLIC CHURCH.
A CARDINAL WAS BEING TALKED
ABOUT AS A RIGHT-WING FUNDER.
YOU HIRED A LAWYER WANTING THEM
TO KILL YOUR OPPONENT, AND IF
YOU THE CONFIDENCE THAT THEY
WERE TOTALLY ON YOUR SIDE AND
THEY WOULD LEGALLY KILL YOUR
OPPONENT.
THAT WAS HIS CALLING CARD.
THE MAFIA LOVED THAT HE WAS NOT
INTIMIDATED BY THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT AND WILL FIGHT THE
WAY I WANT TO FIGHT, THEY WOULD
SAY.
JIM: WAS IT A FACT THAT HE
MET WITH THEM IN HIS TOWNHOUSE,
AND THEY WENT THERE BECAUSE THEY
THOUGHT THERE WAS LITTLE DANGER
A JUDGE WOULD SIGN A WARRANT FOR
A LAWYER'S OFFICE?
KEN: THAT, I HAVE NEVER HEARD.
I THINK HE MET THEM IN VARIOUS
PLACES, INCLUDING HIS OFFICE.
COHN ACTED WITH IMPUNITY.
I DO NOT THINK HE WAS A GUY WHO
THOUGHT, EVEN THOUGH HE HAD
BEEN INDICTED THREE
SEPERATE TIMES,
HE WAS BEING WIRETAPPED,
THERE WAS A SENSE ABOUT HIM THAT
HE CAN GET AWAY WITH ANYTHING.
JIM: HE HAD AN AFFECT THAT HE
DIDN'T WANT TO BE HEARD BECAUSE
HE WAS PLOTTING SOME EVIL.
HIS CLASSIC POSE WAS WHISPERING
IN SOMEONE'S EAR.
KEN: NO QUESTION.
PART OF THAT WAS BEING PARANOID.
JIM: DO YOU KNOW ANY OF THE MOB
PEOPLE HE WAS CONNECTED TO?
KEN: HE DID REPRESENT THE GUY
WHO WALKED THE STREETS IN HIS
BATHROBE.
I THINK HE REPRESENTED THE
GENOVESE FAMILY AS WELL.
JIM: I THINK HE WENT TO
CARMINE GALANTE'S FUNERAL'S,
THE FUNERAL HOME IN BROOKLYN.
KEN: HE LOVED TALKING ABOUT WHY
HE RESPECTED A LOT OF THE MAFIA.
THEY DID NOT RAT ON THEIR
FRIENDS, THEY WERE LOYAL TO
THEIR FRIENDS AND ASSOCIATES.
THEY WERE TOUGH GUYS.
ALL THREE OF THOSE THINGS
MATTERED TO ROY COHN.
IT MAY NOT MATTER TO SOME OF
THE REST OF US.
JIM: HE ALSO REPRESENTED
CASTELLANO AND SALERNO WHO
CONTROLLED THE PORT
CONCRETE BUSINESS IN NEW
YORK CITY AND WERE INVOLVED IN
THE CONSTRUCTION OF TRUMP TOWER.
IN YOUR RESEARCH, DID YOU FIND
INDICATION THAT HE INTRODUCED
TRUMP TO ANY OF THEM?
KEN: I DID NOT. I DID NOT
ALTHOUGH IT'S VERY POSSIBLE
THAT HE DID. CERTAINLY THAT
HAS COME OUT SUBSEQUENT TO
THAT PIECE WHICH WAS '78 THAT
MOBSTERS HAD RELATIONSHIPS
IN DOING BUILDING IN TRUMP
TOWER AND ELSEWHERE.
JIM: THERE WAS A GRAND JURY
INVESTIGATION THAT RESULTED IN
INDICTMENTS.
KEN: YOU HAD BAD PEOPLE LIVING
IN TRUMP TOWER.
JIM: FROM THE RUSSIAN MAFIA AND
FROM ORGANIZED CRIME FIGURES.
KEN: TRUMP WAS A GUY WHO MUCH
LIKE COHN, THIS IS BUSINESS.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BUSINESS.
JIM: IT'S LIKE THE GODFATHER OR
SOMETHING. NOTHING PERSONAL
IT'S JUST BUSINESS.
KEN: IF I CAN GET THIS BUILDING
BUILT WITHOUT LABOR STRIKES AND
DIFFICULTIES AND THESE ARE THE
PEOPLE WHO MAY BE ROY COHN
INTRODUCED HIM TO, THAT IS A
GREAT THING.
TRUMP TOWER WASN'T BUILT UNTIL
THE 80S.
JIM: YOUR PIECE WAS IN 1978.
THEN WAS REPUBLISHED DURING
THE CAMPAIGN BECAUSE IT
HAD A CONTINUING VITALITY.
COHN WAS THE MASTER OF THE
THREATENING LETTER.
TRUMP SAID HE SAVED US A LOT
OF MONEY BECAUSE A LETTER FROM
ROY COHN SENDS EVERYONE
SHIVERING IN THEIR BOOTS.
WHAT WERE YOU ABLE TO FIND OUT
ABOUT THREATENING LETTERS?
KEN: HE DID IT ALL THE TIME.
THAT WAS ANOTHER CALLING CARD.
HE SAID, I WILL HANDLE IT.
HE WOULD SEND AN IN-YOUR-FACE,
THREATENING LETTER TO THE OTHER
PARTY IN THE HOPE THAT THEY
WOULD JUST RETREAT AND
SURRENDER.
IF NOT, HE TOOK THEM TO COURT.
TRUMP HAS HAD THAT BEHAVIOR
THROUGHOUT HIS BUSINESS CAREER.
JIM: HAVE YOU EVER HEARD THAT
TRUMP HAD A PHOTOGRAPH OF ROY
COHN ON HIS DESK AND WHEN
SOMEONE CAME TO NEGOTIATE A
MATTER, HE'D TAKE THE PHOTOGRAPH
AND SAID IF YOU DON'T AGREE
WITH ME, THIS IS MY LAWYER?
KEN: I NEVER HEARD OF THAT.
BUT WHEN I INTERVIEWED HIM, HE
TALKED ABOUT IT WITH PRIDE THAT
ROY COHN IS MY LAWYER AND THAT
IS MY ARMOR.
IF YOU WANT TO GO AFTER ME,
YOU'LL HAVE TO DEAL WITH HIM.
JIM: WHAT ABOUT MANIPULATING THE
PRESS?
ONE OF THE THINGS COHN SAID TO
YOU WAS THAT THE ONLY FORM OF
BAD PUBLICITY IS NO PUBLICITY.
DO YOU THINK THAT IS ANOTHER
LESSON HE TAUGHT TO DONALD
TRUMP?
KEN: TOTALLY.
COHN WAS A GUY, AND AS
TRUMP USED TO BE, HE'S NO
LONGER THIS WAY, YOU COULD
WRITE SOMETHING NEGATIVE ABOUT
COHN AS YOU CAN WRITE SOMETHING
NEGATIVE ABOUT TRUMP -- I HAD AN
EXPENSE WITH BOTH IN THE 1970'S
AND 1980'S, AND YOU COULDN'T
OFFEND THEM. BECAUSE THEY
THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO BE
IN THE PRESS BECAUSE THE PRESS
HELPED DEFINE YOU.
I REMEMBER WRITING NEGATIVE
THINGS ABOUT DONALD TRUMP
IN THE SWEETHEART DEAL THAT
HE GOT FROM THE CITY OF NEW
YORK TO BUILD THE OLD COMMODORE
HOTEL AND GET TAX AVOIDANCE
OF ALMOST $200 MILLION.
HE WOULD CALL ME UP OR WRITE
ME LETTERS AND SAY LET'S HAVE
LUNCH.
THAT IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE
DONALD TRUMP TODAY.
HE GOT THAT FROM ROY COHN.
ROY COHN SAID THE PRESS IS GOOD
AND YOU NEED PUBLICITY, AND PUT
YOUR SPIN ON IT.
IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE LITERALLY
TRUE.
THEY WRITE IT, IT WILL BE
BELIEVED, THAT IS GOOD.
JIM: AND INGRATIATE YOURSELF
WITH THE PRESS BECAUSE HE
WAS A SOURCE WASN'T HE FOR
PAGE SIX OF THE NEW YORK POST?
KEN: IF YOU ARE A SOURCE
FOR GOSSIP COLUMNISTS,
IF YOU'RE A SOURCE IN GENERAL
BUT MORE SO IN THE GOSSIP
WORLD, THEY ALLOW YOU TO
TRADE IN. IT BECOMES A FORM OF
PROTECTION.
JIM: WELL CINDY ADAMS, WHO KNEW
TRUMP VERY WELL, WAS PRESENT
WHEN TRUMP LEARNED HE
HAD WON THE ELECTION IN
NOVEMBER OF 2016.
AND SHE TOLD ME THAT TRUMP
SAID IF ROY COHN WERE HERE HE
NEVER WOULD HAVE BELIEVED IT.
IT WOULD APPEAR THAT COHN LEFT
AN IMPRESSION AND WE NOW HAVE
THE TWO INSTANCES SINCE HE HAS
BEEN IN THE WHITE HOUSE WHERE HE
WAS LAMENTING THE FACT THAT
LAWYERS WEREN'T PROTECTING HIM
IN THE RUSSIAN INVESTIGATION
FROM BOB MUELLER AND HE SAID,
I WISH I HAD ROY COHN HERE.
DO YOU BELIEVE THERE WAS SUCH AN
IMPRESSION THAT HE LEFT ON HIM?
KEN: TO TRUMP, ROY COHN WAS A
LEGAL EXECUTIONER.
HE WAS SOMEONE YOU HIRED WHO
WOULD FIERCELY PROTECT YOUR BACK
AND ASSAIL ANYONE WHO WAS YOUR
OPPONENT.
HE FEELS THAT JEFF SESSIONS HAS
NOT DONE THAT AS ATTORNEY
GENERAL FOR HIM AND A LOT OF
HIS STAFF DOES NOT DO THAT, AND
THEY LEAK STUFF ABOUT HIM.
ROY COHN WAS A PROPONENT FOR
DONALD TRUMP AND INTERESTINGLY
IN THE END, ROY COHN FELT
BETRAYED BY DONALD TRUMP BUT
WE CAN GET TO THAT-
JIM: YES. OF COURSE, ROY COHN
WAS DISBARRED. THERE WAS A
DISBARMENT HEARING. TRUMP
TESTIFIED AS A CHARACTER
WITNESS.
TRUMP THREW HIM A PARTY AT
MAR-A-LAGO BEFORE COHN DIED AND
TRUMP WENT TO HIS FUNERAL.
WHY WAS HE BETRAYED?
KEN: THERE WAS THE TIME WHEN ROY
CONTRACTED AIDS AND WAS SLOWLY
DYING.
DONALD TRUMP CUT HIM OFF
AND DID NOT MAKE THE VISIT
AND REACH OUT WITH PHONE CALLS.
I AM GUESSING ON THIS, HE
PROBABLY FELT DISGUSTING, THAT
THIS GUY WAS GAY AND PROMISCUOUS
AND DYING FROM THAT.
DONALD TRUMP IS A TEETOTALER.
HIS BROTHER DIED OF ALCOHOLISM.
HE HAS A VIEW OF UNPROTECTED SEX
AND OTHER THINGS.
HE IS A GERMAPHOBE. DONALD
TRUMP WOULDN'T SHAKE YOUR
HAND. HE WOULD NOW BECAUSE
HE HAS TO AS A CANDIDATE OR AS
PRESIDENT, BUT BACK IN THE 70S
OR 80S IF YOU WENT TO SHAKE
DONALD TRUMP'S HAND HE WOULD
PULL IT BACK.
HE WOULD ALWAYS HAVE HAND WASH
WITH HIM. I COULD SEE HIM
LOOKING AT DISTAIN AT ROY COHN'S
BEHAVIOR.
ROY COHN CONFIDED TO PEOPLE,
INCLUDING STANLEY FRIEDMAN, THAT
HE FELT THAT DONALD TRUMP
BETRAYED HIM AND WAS NOT HIS
LOYAL FRIEND IN THE END.
DID DONALD TRUMP IN THE END FEEL
GUILTY ABOUT THAT?
I AM NOT A PSYCHOLOGIST.
JIM: I HAVE A QUESTION FOR
YOU KEN AULETTA
BECAUSE WE HAVE RUN OUT OF TIME,
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT ROY COHN IS
SITTING NEXT TO DONALD TRUMP IN
THE WHITE HOUSE WHISPERING IN
HIS EAR TODAY?
KEN: I THINK DONALD TRUMP
INTERNALIZED THE LESSONS HE GOT
FROM HIS MENTOR, ROY COHN, AND
ACTS OUT WHAT HE WAS TAUGHT
BY COHN. ATTACK, NEVER
APOLOGIZE, NEVER BE ON THE
DEFENCE, HYPERBOLE OR
EXAGGERATION, AND LIE.
THREATENING IS GOOD.
WE CALL IT A LIE, HE DOESN'T.
JIM: THANK YOU SO MUCH.
KEN: MY PLEASURE.
JIM: THANK YOU FOR COMING BY.
TUNE IN NEXT WEEK FOR MORE
CONVERSATIONS.
I'M JIM ZIRIN. TAKE CARE AND
ALL THE BEST.
♪ [THEME MUSIC] ♪
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