JUDY WOODRUFF: Good evening.
I'm Judy Woodruff.
On the "NewsHour" tonight: a shutdown stalemate.
President Trump walks out of a meeting with congressional leaders at the White House,
tweeting the negotiations were a total waste of time.
Then: how the shutdown is impacting immigration courts.
Judges are working without pay and many migrants are seeing their cases delayed, sometimes
for years.
Plus: Virtual reality allows doctors to take patients and families on an immersive tour
of the brain prior to surgery.
DR.
KURTIS AUGUSTE, UCSF Benioff Children's Hospital: I tell people all the time, as I'm preparing
for surgery scrolling through MRIs, if only I could shrink myself down to this small,
and insert myself into this space, and just take a look around.
And that's effectively what you can do with this technology.
JUDY WOODRUFF: All that and more on tonight's "PBS NewsHour."
(BREAK)
JUDY WOODRUFF: A wipeout at the White House.
The latest meeting between President Trump and congressional leaders has ended abruptly,
in a new round of recriminations.
That leaves much of the United States government still shut down over the issue of a border
wall.
Congressional correspondent Lisa Desjardins reports.
LISA DESJARDINS: It was the shortest shutdown meeting yet.
REP.
NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), Speaker of the House: Federal workers will not be receiving their
paychecks.
LISA DESJARDINS: This afternoon, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Minority Leader Chuck
Schumer were in the White House for about 30 minutes, when Schumer said the president
ended their meeting, refusing to reopen government.
SEN.
CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY), Minority Leader: Well, unfortunately, the president just got up and
walked out.
He asked Speaker Pelosi, "Will you agree to my wall?"
She said no.
And he just got up and said, "Then we have nothing to discuss," and he just walked out.
LISA DESJARDINS: As Democrats spoke, President Trump tweeted confirmation that he ended today's
talks.
MIKE PENCE, Vice President of the United States: We just ended a very short meeting in the
Situation Room.
LISA DESJARDINS: Republicans, led by Vice President Pence, pointed to Democrats as the
problem, saying Democrats made it clear they will not move closer to the president's position
on the wall.
MIKE PENCE: Today, in this brief meeting, we heard once again that Democratic leaders
are unwilling to even negotiate to resolve this partial government shutdown or address
the crisis at our southern border.
LISA DESJARDINS: This was the capstone to a day where the two sides moved farther apart.
MAN: top playing chicken with our lives.
LISA DESJARDINS: Democrats started the morning flanked by furloughed federal workers.
SEN.
CHUCK SCHUMER: The first order of business, open up the government.
You heard these people.
Right?
MAN: Yes.
WOMAN: Exactly.
MAN: Open it up.
LISA DESJARDINS: Among them, Holly Salamido, who had worked at Housing and Urban development
and now heads a local union chapter.
She said it's not just workers, but those in federal housing who are at risk.
HOLLY SALAMIDO, President, AFGE Council 222.
If there's a problem, there's no one at HUD to call.
In some cases, people are facing eviction.
LISA DESJARDINS: This as President Trump spent the day underscoring his Oval Office address
last night about border security and his demand for a southern border barrier.
At a bill signing, he said wall.
DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: We can all play games, but a wall is a necessity.
All of the other things, the sensors and the drones, it's all wonderful to have, and it
works well, but only if you have the wall.
If you don't have the wall, it doesn't matter.
LISA DESJARDINS: The president did take time to address divisions in his own party.
The president and vice president lunched with Republican senators.
Sources say the president privately called for unity.
Publicly, he was confident and praised GOP Leader Mitch McConnell.
DONALD TRUMP: I would say we have a very, very united party.
Mitch has been fantastic.
Everybody in that room was fantastic.
LISA DESJARDINS: Still, several Republican senators are signaling otherwise.
Alaska's Lisa Murkowski, Colorado's Cory Gardner, and Maine's Susan Collins have signaled they
are ready to act on bills passed by House Democrats to reopen most government.
That legislation funds most agencies for the rest of the year, and funds DHS for one month,
giving time for more border security talks.
But Republican Leader Mitch McConnell says no deal will get a vote until the president
and all sides support it.
SEN.
MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), Majority Leader: We're all behind the president.
We think the border security issue is extremely important to the country.
LISA DESJARDINS: Another sign that leaders are moving farther from any middle ground,
today, Vice President Pence seemed to reach out to the conservative base, speaking to
talk radio host Rush Limbaugh with uncompromising tone.
MIKE PENCE: President Trump and I and our entire team is determined to stand firm until
the Democrats in Congress come to the table and work with us to secure the border, build
a wall, end this humanitarian crisis, and do what's right for the American people.
LISA DESJARDINS: Tomorrow, leaders again go in different directions.
House Democrats plan to pass separate bills, reopening most agencies, and the president
plans to visit the Texas border to reinforce his case for a wall.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And Lisa joins me now from Capitol Hill, along with Yamiche Alcindor
from the White House.
Yamiche, that was quite a meeting, by all accounts.
Tell us, what is the president saying about it?
And, I guess, afterwards, the vice president came out with other Republicans and talked
to you and other reporters.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Well, negotiations essentially spun out of control and hit a roadblock.
This was quite a scene on the White House lawn today.
The Democrats were saying that the president threw a temper tantrum, and Republicans are
saying that the Democrats were not telling the truth.
Now, the president, a few minutes after this meeting that was supposed to be longer, but
ended about 30 minutes, tweeted.
And I want to read to you what he tweeted.
He tweeted: "Just left a meeting with Chuck and Nancy, a total waste of time.
I asked, what is going to happen in 30 days if I quickly open things up?
Are you going to approve border security, which includes a wall or steel barrier?
Nancy said no.
I said bye-bye.
Nothing else works."
Now, Senator Schumer said that the president then slammed his hands on the table while
he was in the meeting.
And I then talked to Vice President Pence about that and said, what was the mood in
that meeting and are we closer to a national emergency?
Vice President Pence told me that the president -- quote -- "The president walked into the
room and passed out candy.
I don't recall him ever raising his voice or slamming his hands."
So what we have is two completely different stories about how this meeting went.
What is clear, though, is that things are going to be prolonged.
This shutdown is not ending anytime soon.
And Democrats and Republicans are really going back to their corners.
JUDY WOODRUFF: So, Lisa, to you now.
What are Republican -- what are people saying on the Hill about this, about what -- the
breakdown of these talks yet again, and how long do they think this can go on?
LISA DESJARDINS: Well, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi returned to the Hill, and she told
reporters that the president was being petulant, in her words.
And she repeated some of what she said at the White House.
I spoke to Republican House members on their way to a vote.
And it was fascinating, Judy.
Several of them just shrugged.
One of them literally shrugged and said, that's how things are right now.
It's broken down to this point.
However, I will also say, from those Republican House members, they seem to be coalescing
more around the president than I have seen before.
The president seems to have convinced at least House Republicans that he is very serious
about pushing for his wall.
In the words of these House Republicans, they now think Democrats need to bring an offer
to the table.
That's something I didn't hear from these House members last week, and they're saying
it more and more.
However, Democrats are saying something else, Judy.
They're saying the president is not someone who can be negotiated with right now, and
that he is being unreasonable and unruly.
And here's the interesting part, Judy.
Democrats are saying they think the pressure needs to be on Mitch McConnell, that they
think Senate Republicans are the place where there could be a breakthrough in these negotiations,
and they want to add pressure on those Senate Republicans.
We will see if that happens.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Pointing fingers in the opposite direction, both sides are.
Yamiche, we know that there are polls showing that a bare majority, but a majority of Americans
blame the president for the shutdown.
What do we know about how he's trying to change public opinion?
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Well, the president is changing public -- or trying to change public opinion
by meeting with lawmakers in person, by going on TV and sending other representatives for
the White House on TV, and by going on conservative talk radio.
The president today held a meeting with congressional Senate Republicans.
And in that meeting, he repeatedly said, we need to have unity, we need to be strong,
this is the probably the best time we're going to have to get funding for the wall, so stick
with me.
The other thing that's important is that Vice President Pence went on Rush Limbaugh's conservative
radio show today.
Now, Vice President Pence just on Monday said that he hates the word base and that he -- this
is not about politics.
But then, today, he went on Rush Limbaugh's show and said, thank you for all that you're
doing for us and thank you for building this movement.
Add to that the fact that the president is going to be heading to the border tomorrow.
He's going to be making his case, talking to people in Texas, talking to them about
what he sees as a crisis on the border.
So what we're seeing is a White House that's using its messaging power both all over as
much as they possibly can to make the case that this is a crisis and that Democrats are
in the wrong here.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Lisa, very quickly, political dynamics on the Hill?
How do these members of Congress seem?
It appears they're getting farther apart.
LISA DESJARDINS: There is a real split here, Judy.
And, again, it's a little bit House and Senate.
I spoke to a very plugged-in House Republican.
And he told me, listen, most House Republicans do not have federal workers in their district.
So, he point-blank said, it's not in our interest to end the shutdown.
I countered and said, yes, but there are some interesting groups like, say, Customs and
Border Patrol officers who will not be paid.
That's pretty -- generally a demographic that Republicans think about a lot.
He said, yes, that's true.
Once we see law enforcement suffering, that might move the dial for Republicans.
But, otherwise, the federal worker argument is not something we care about.
We care much more about border security and we think it's a serious threat.
Democrats, on the other hand, think this is all a very large political mistake for Republicans.
They say walking out of a meeting is something that will cost them politically for months,
perhaps years.
We will see.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Another day, apparently no closer and apparently even farther apart,
the two sides are.
Lisa Desjardins, Yamiche Alcindor, thank you both.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Thanks.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And we will look at the effects of the shutdown and where to go from here
after the news summary.
In the day's other news: There's word that Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein will
leave the Justice Department once a new attorney general is confirmed.
Rosenstein oversees special counsel Robert Mueller's Russia investigation, and has often
been attacked by President Trump.
William Barr would assume that oversight role, if he becomes attorney general.
He met with Republican senators today, including Lindsey Graham of South Carolina.
SEN.
LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), South Carolina: I asked Mr. Barr directly, do you think Bob -- Mr.
Mueller is on a witch-hunt?
He said no.
Do you see any reason for Mr. Mueller's investigation to be stopped.
He said no.
Do you see any basis for a termination based on cause?
He said no.
Are you committed to making sure Mr. Mueller can finish his job?
Yes.
JUDY WOODRUFF: In the past, Barr criticized the Russia investigation, but, today, he said
Mueller is doing an excellent job.
The Israeli security service Shin Bet vowed today to block foreign interference in Israel's
upcoming elections.
The agency's chief had warned that a foreign power is trying to meddle in the campaign.
Suspicion quickly fell on Russia, but the Kremlin denied any involvement.
Iran has confirmed the arrest of a U.S. Navy veteran, but is not saying what he is charged
with.
Michael White is the first American known to be detained there since President Trump
took office.
He disappeared while visiting Iran last July.
News of the arrest comes as the U.S. is ratcheting up economic sanctions on Tehran.
Secretary of State Mike Pompeo was in Iraq today, offering reassurance about the fate
of Kurdish fighters in Syria.
They have fought the Islamic State group, but Turkey regards the Kurds as terrorists,
and it's threatening to attack them once the U.S. withdraws from Syria.
Pompeo held meetings in Baghdad and with Iraqi Kurds in Irbil.
He insisted the Syrian Kurds are not being abandoned.
MIKE POMPEO, U.S. Secretary of State: These have been folks that have fought with us,
and it is important that we do everything we can to ensure that those folks that have
fought with us are protected.
JUDY WOODRUFF: From Iraq, Pompeo moved on to Egypt.
He will travel to Saudi Arabia and to other Gulf states later.
The president of Sudan has rejected demands for his resignation, despite three weeks of
protests.
Omar al-Bashir insisted today that he will leave only if he's voted out.
He took power in a military coup in 1989.
As al-Bashir spoke, hundreds of anti-government demonstrators marched in the city of Omdurman.
They headed for Parliament, before police intervened.
In Bangladesh, thousands of garment workers took to the streets for a fourth day, demanding
better pay.
Protesters shut down factories and blocked roads on the outskirts of the capital, Dhaka.
That set off clashes with riot police, who used water cannons and batons to disperse
the crowds.
Local reports said that one demonstrator was shot dead.
In the Philippines, a colossal crowd of Catholic faithful joined in a daylong procession for
the Black Nazarene, a centuries-old statue of Jesus Christ.
Up to five million people marched through Manila alongside the carriage holding the
statue.
Many said they believe it has healing powers.
VALENTINA RAMOS, Procession Attendee (through translator): First, my daughter had cancer,
and she survived, she survived cancer twice.
Then my husband got a lung disease, and he also survived.
Then my firstborn was able to get a good job, because of the Black Nazarene.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Spanish missionaries are said to have brought the statue to Manila in the
1600s.
It was burned black during a fire on the ship that carried it.
Back in this country, President Trump has formally nominated Andrew Wheeler to run the
Environmental Protection Agency.
The former energy lobbyist has been serving as acting EPA chief since July.
Wheeler's predecessor, Scott Pruitt, resigned last summer amid scrutiny of his spending
and various ethical issues.
Toyota is recalling another 1.3 million vehicles in the U.S. over faulty air bag inflators.
They're blamed for at least 23 deaths around the world.
Some 50 million air bag inflators made by Takata have been recalled in recent years.
One-third of them have yet to be replaced.
And on Wall Street, the Dow Jones industrial average gained 91 points to close at 23879.
The Nasdaq rose 60, and the S&P 500 added 10.
Still to come on the "NewsHour": what will it take to find a deal to open the government;
why the shutdown is adding to already overwhelmed immigration courts; virtual reality gives
patients and doctors an inside look at the brain; plus, how one writer's decision to
speak about her rape inspired a new book.
The breakdown of talks at the White House today demonstrates the deep divides on both
policy and politics.
We want to get two takes now on where things could go after this latest stalemate.
We begin with a man who has served in many key roles in Washington, Leon Panetta.
He served as defense secretary under President Obama.
He was also chief of staff for President Clinton during the longest government shutdown to
date.
Leon Panetta, welcome back to the "NewsHour."
So, today saw yet another breakdown in a meeting between the president and Democratic leaders.
As somebody who's overseen and lived through a shutdown in the past, how do you see what's
going on now?
LEON PANETTA, Former U.S. Secretary of Defense: Well, Judy, I think -- I think we all have
to begin with a basic premise here, which is that there is no justifiable reason, whether
it's a wall or whether it's a war, to justify shutting the government down.
The government needs to continue to function.
The American people are entitled to the services that are provided, and we shouldn't use federal
employees as pawns in this kind of political conflict.
I think, ultimately, there's only one way to get out of this mess, which is to reopen
the government, open it on a short-term basis, if necessary, and then sit down and negotiate
on some kind of comprehensive approach to border security.
That's the only sane way to try to get out of this mess.
JUDY WOODRUFF: But, right now, President Trump is saying he won't do that.
Should the Democrats give in some way in order to get the president to agree to open the
government and then talk about the border?
LEON PANETTA: I think the most important -- important issue right now is not to keep the government
shut down.
There's no reason for that.
People are not getting paychecks.
Their families are hurting.
We are punishing innocent people in this process.
There's no excuse for that.
So reopen the government, and then I think the Democrats ought to commit themselves to
sitting down and negotiating on border security.
There are a lot of areas on border security where there's agreement, the need for technology,
the need for personnel, the need for judges, the need for humanitarian assistance.
As far as a wall is concerned, Republicans and Democrats in the past have agreed on physical
barriers to be used in key areas along the border.
I think there are ways to resolve this, but the president is going to have to say that
he is willing to negotiate without necessarily getting the money he wants for a wall.
And I think he's put himself in a very difficult position, where it's the wall or nothing.
JUDY WOODRUFF: So when Speaker Pelosi, in response to the president reportedly in that
meeting at the White House today, when the president asked her, if I agree to open the
government, we talk about this in a month about what to do about border security, the
border wall, would you be willing to do that, and she said no, was that the right answer?
LEON PANETTA: Well, my understanding from those that were present was he asked, if I
open up the government in 30 days, would you be willing to agree on a wall, and she said
no.
She's always made her position pretty clear with regards to a wall, as have the Democrats
and has -- and, frankly, there are Republicans opposed to a wall approach.
If the president could sell a wall, he would have done it the last two years with a Republican
majority in both the House and the Senate.
He's been unable to do that.
So the issue is going to come down to, do we want real border security to deal with
the crisis along the border?
There are ways to do this, ways both sides can agree to.
But the issue of a wall, if it's about a concrete wall on the border, I think that basically
shuts down any possibility of negotiation.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, I guess the president is now talking about a steel -- a wall made
out of steel.
But, Leon Panetta, how do you -- right now, you have got both sides saying, I'm not budging
anymore, this is it.
What happened -- how long can this go on?
LEON PANETTA: Well, having gone through this when I was chief of staff to Bill Clinton,
we went through a lot of negotiations.
We were not able to arrive at any consensus.
The government shut down.
And, ultimately, what happened is that the political impact of that shutdown and the
people that were affected began to really hurt the Republican leadership in the Congress.
And I think the same thing's going to happen here.
You cannot have people losing their paychecks, you cannot have people hurting with their
families, you cannot have people going without food, not able to get loans, you cannot allow
that to continue to happen, and not have a political impact from that taking place.
When that happens, then the president and the Republicans and the Democrats as well
will agree that it's time to open up the government, and then get back to the business of the country.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, that's exactly what I want to ask you about, because, right now,
the polls are showing Republicans are overwhelmingly with the president on this.
I saw 77 percent of Republicans -- I was just looking at a poll -- want additional border
fencing.
The president is listening to his base, listening to Republicans.
LEON PANETTA: I think there's no question that he has support along with his base, but
the question is, what is it we need in order to ensure good border security?
That is the fundamental question.
We all agree on the crisis.
So what are the steps needed in order to get border security?
And, yes, we agree on technology, we agree on personnel, we agree on judges, we agree
on other steps that need to be taken.
With regards to a wall, I think those who are experts with regards to security have
said, yes, we can use some physical barriers, yes, we can use some fencing.
I think there should be some agreement along those lines.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Right.
LEON PANETTA: But, as to a wall, I just don't think that there's going to be any support
for that.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Very quickly, Leon Panetta, if you were here today in Washington, what
would you do if you were at the White House as chief of staff or on Capitol Hill?
LEON PANETTA: You know, I understand the politics.
Everybody's painted themselves into a corner.
But I think it's the responsibility of the president of the United States to protect
this country, and it isn't just about the security along the border.
It's about the operations of government on behalf of the people of this country.
The purpose of government is not to punish our people.
It is to help our people, and that's why he should take steps to open up the government
and then get a commitment from the Democrats to negotiate on border security.
That's the best way out of this mess.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Former Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, we thank you.
And for a Republican's take, we turn now to a member of their House leadership team, Representative
Doug Collins of Georgia.
Congressman Collins, welcome back to the "NewsHour."
I think you just heard Leon Panetta say, the president -- it's one thing to be worried
about the border, but what the president needs to be more concerned about is the country
overall, the American people overall and the welfare of this country.
SEN.
DOUG COLLINS (R), Georgia: Judy, I think he's exactly right, but I think he's exactly right
for a reason he doesn't believe.
I believe what is happening right now at the border is that the Democrats are putting the
lives of others who are coming to our country, trying to come in illegally, ahead of the
rights of Americans who are here.
I believe the president is putting Americans first.
I believe he is putting our citizenry first.
And we do need to have a balanced approach.
No one on the Hill, myself and many others, including the president, have said the border
wall or security measures are the only thing that we need.
There are humanitarian assistance.
There's issues of health and safety.
There are issues in our laws right now that are giving, frankly, a perverse incentive
for people to come across the border to make those long, dangerous trips up here.
But I think he does have it right in one respect.
The president is looking out for the American people.
And, oftentimes, when the Democrats will not come to the table, they're telling the American
people, we prefer to be on the side of those trying to break in illegally to the country
and now the American citizen.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, I don't think -- Democrats certainly wouldn't agree with that.
But, Congressman Collins, let me ask you about what you just said about the president's emphasis.
He -- in every conversation, he's bringing up a wall, a physical border.
You just described a number of other things that it appears the parties could come to
some sort of agreement on.
Why does the wall itself have to be resolved before federal workers are relieved of what's
going on right now, this situation where they're not getting paid and enduring hardships?
REP.
DOUG COLLINS: Well, at this point in time, I think the president has made it clear.
And I think the reason the wall is because it's not been addressed.
Now, it's been interesting that Democrats addressed it in the past.
And they addressed it in building a lot more wall and addressed it in funding it and even
going back many years and saying, we want border security.
The question is, I agree, border security has got to take place, because what has happened
so many times in the past is, we say we're going to secure the border.
We say we're either going to put fencing up or do the next technologies -- technologies
and things that we need to do.
But yet, at the end of the time, we end up not doing those things.
And we take -- and we -- in the past, we gave amnesty away.
We gave pathways for people to stay.
And we have not addressed that.
There has to be a twofold approach here, Judy.
There has to be a security piece and the piece that we actually look at to fix it.
JUDY WOODRUFF: But, in the meantime, as we just, again, heard from Leon Panetta, and
we have heard it from others, the Americans -- those who work for the federal government
are being punished because of this unwillingness to bend at the highest levels of our -- the
leadership of our country.
REP.
DOUG COLLINS: Well, at this point in time, Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, I agree with
the discussion, that we need to have, that this is not where we need to be.
But this is not simply a presidential problem.
The president said we need border security and we need the wall.
He's made that clear.
But also, at the same point, when there's not even a discussion, when he said, if I
open it up today, would we have discussion on a wall or border security in 30 days?
Nancy Pelosi said no.
She's made it very clear that her choice is those trying to come in illegally, not the
American people that she claims to be -- the workers she claims to be fighting for.
But yet her priorities are still on a border situation in which, if you ask specifically
what are you wanting to do to fix some of these issues, we're not getting that.
She just simply says, we're not going to work on it.
But yet, in the past, a Democrat such as Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and, yes, even Chuck
Schumer have voted for border security walls.
They just use it now as a political toy, not to deal with security.
JUDY WOODRUFF: It's my understanding that the Democratic leadership is saying, we will
talk about security.
It's the wall that's the issue.
But let me turn to something else.
The majority in the House, which is now Democrats, have started tonight, today to pass bills
to open up individual departments and agencies of government, the IRS, the Treasury, and
others.And eight Republicans have now so far voted with the Democrats.
Are you concerned there are cracks in the Republican support for your side of this argument?
REP.
DOUG COLLINS: No.
If you look back over our voting history, Judy, if you look at almost any votes, when
even we were in the majority, we would have -- we would typically have five to six or
seven Republicans vote no.
We just are not always lockstep.
That is not a significant number.
The vast majority, overwhelming majority of Republicans are focused on a plan to say,
we will deal with this as a package, because what the Democrats want to do is take away
the incentive to get this thing solved.
And if all you're focusing on is opening the government, making it painless, then they
can keep kicking the can of border security down the line.
We're standing with the president on this.
We want to see a deal.
We want to work it out, but -- and even Democrats that I talked to on the Florida are wanting
to find -- and the question that came from many of them to me was, how can we get out
of this?
They understand that it is both not just a single issue.
And we have got to work on that.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Just finally, Congressman Collins, the statistics and numbers the president continues
to cite, it's clear that some of those are just either flat-out wrong or greatly exaggerated,
for example, talking about the spike in illegal drugs coming across the border.
Those are -- apparently, most or all of them are coming through legal ports of entry, something
a wall wouldn't address.
Talking about the security crisis at the border, so much of this has to do with people seeking
asylum, seeking legal asylum, but the U.S. not having the capacity to deal with that,
again, not something a wall could address.
So how do you get at the core, just flat-out disagreement over what's true here?
REP.
DOUG COLLINS: Well, what is true is, we have over 300,000 people coming across that are
detained at our border.
I don't think anybody would argue that's not a large number.
What is true is that 50 people a day are being referred to medical care coming across the
border.
They're coming across sick.
They're coming across because they're willing to take lives into their hands to do this.
And, really, it's because of really three areas.
There is the Flores.
Three areas we could fix on this, Judy.
I think the Flores decision, which encourages families to come across, and the decision
says that we can -- only can detain them for 20 days while we determine their status.
What happens is, they're let go.
They go out into the country.
And their decision is decided many years later.
We could also look at asylum issues, credible fear claims.
When they do get to that border and they want to claim asylum, 90 percent are admitted on
credible fear.
But after it's adjudicated, less than 20 percent are actually allowed to stay, because the
fear standard doesn't make.
(CROSSTALK)
JUDY WOODRUFF: But my point is, very quickly, that wouldn't be resolved by a wall.
REP.
DOUG COLLINS: Walls -- but -- but, also Judy, not dealing with a wall, not dealing with
border security, and only trying to deal with other issues, you have got to take away the
incentive and also take away the barrier.
Border Patrol agents have actually said, in the areas in which we have talked about, border
walls actually work.
And to deny that that happened is not true.
But also to say that is the only issue is also not being a complete picture person.
I want to be a complete picture person.
So we need the wall.
We need security.
And we need to fix these perverse incentives that will send parents, will take children,
separate themselves, and send them on journeys without them, into the dangers that are presented
there.
We have got to look at this as a whole.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Congressman Doug Collins from the House leadership, Republican leadership,
thank you very much.
REP.
DOUG COLLINS: Judy, it's good to see you.
JUDY WOODRUFF: As this partial shutdown grinds on tonight, we get two more looks at its ripple
effects.
By all accounts, the nation's immigration courts are overburdened, approximately 800,000
cases being handled by around 400 immigration judges.
Now, because of the shutdown, most of those cases are on hold.
Amna Nawaz takes it from there.
AMNA NAWAZ: In every case before them, immigration judges are the arbiter, deciding if immigrants
who appear in their court have legal permission to stay in the U.S., or if they may have to
be deported.
For a closer look at what the shutdown means for the immigration court system, I'm joined
by Judge Dana Leigh Marks.
She's a spokeswoman and president emeritus of the National Association of Immigration
Judges.
Judge Marks, thanks for joining me.
Let's begin with the shutdown.
Who's working, who's not, and what's been the effect of cases that are already in the
pipeline?
JUDGE DANA LEIGH MARKS, President Emeritus, National Association of Immigration Judges:
It's been a devastating impact to have our immigration courts shut down, Amna.
You're well aware of the tremendous backlog.
And the only judges who are working are those who are hearing cases of individuals who are
held in custody by the immigration officials.
All of the non-detained cases in courts, which are the vast majority of our dockets, are
on hold for the indefinite future.
AMNA NAWAZ: And so we know some of these cases can already take years to unfold.
What does it mean for the future of those cases?
JUDGE DANA LEIGH MARKS: It's very difficult to make that assessment.
I know, for me in San Francisco, for example, I have a pending caseload of over 4,000 cases.
So many of the cases that are being canceled for the shutdown have been on my docket already
for two or three or four years, and now I have no time in the foreseeable future to
reset them.
It could be another three or four years before those people can expect hearings on their
cases.
AMNA NAWAZ: So we heard about that backlog.
That is now at a record high.
And if you take a look at those numbers, those have been going up rapidly over the last 10
years.
I guess the basic question is, how did we get here?
JUDGE DANA LEIGH MARKS: Well, it has been a long time in coming through both Democratic
and Republican administrations.
While there has been a big focus on immigration enforcement, there has not been sufficient
focus to the immigration court system.
We're housed in the Department of Justice, and, frankly, the Department of Justice has
not advocated either as forcefully or skillfully for us.
As the Department of Homeland Security's enforcement resources has grown, what's happened for the
courts is that we have fallen behind and not received proportional increases that we would
need to stay current with the cases that come into our system.
AMNA NAWAZ: Judge Marks, I haven't to ask you about a issue that came under focus because
of the shutdown argument and because of the focus on our southern border.
A number of the cases, asylum cases in particular, that originate from our southern border come
from three countries, Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras.
The government has said, the vast majority of those aren't with merit, that, ultimately,
these are not granted asylum.
And so I guess my question is, if they can find a way to limit the number of cases coming
to your court, wouldn't that help to alleviate the backlog?
JUDGE DANA LEIGH MARKS: It's not quite that simple, Amna.
It is a very complicated assessment to determine whether or not someone is qualified for asylum.
I describe it as being like a 1,000-piece puzzle, and you have to have every piece visible.
So in order to determine whether or not someone is eligible, Congress has decided that these
people are entitled to a hearing before an immigration judge, so that the proper legal
analysis can be applied to their case.
That's what our law provides and, frankly, that's what international treatise that we
are signatories of require of us.
So it would require a change in the governing law, not just a change in policy, in order
to try to make a big impact on those kinds of cases.
AMNA NAWAZ: Judge Marks, there is an argument made by the administration that our legal
process has built into it loopholes, that people coming who apply for asylum end up
staying for years because of the pace and the backlog, and that makes it harder when
their cases are ultimately denied to get them out of the country.
What do you say to that?
JUDGE DANA LEIGH MARKS: Our organization firmly believes that everyone is entitled to their
day in court, and that it should occur in a reasonably prompt amount of time.
But the reason that there are delays in our system is simply because we have been underfunded
and ignored for so long.
The system does work, when it receives the proper funding.
And it's not a loophole.
It is the appropriate due process that is what American justice provides to any individual
who has their life and liberty at stake before our courts.
AMNA NAWAZ: Judge Dana Leigh Marks, thank you very much for your time.
JUDGE DANA LEIGH MARKS: Thank you so much, Amna.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And one more take on the impact of this shutdown, this time on science.
William Brangham explores the ways research is feeling the heat.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: There are thousands of researchers who are furloughed or working without pay
at agencies like the EPA, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, the U.S. Department
of Agriculture, and the U.S. Geological Survey.
And there are many others who don't work directly for the government, but who are also still
feeling the pinch, people like the men and women at various universities who get federal
money for their research.
With the shutdown, the pipeline for that money is now blocked.
With all these scientists idled, many argue that some very important work, things like
the regular monitoring of chemicals, to tracking of endangered species, is also not happening.
Rush Holt is the CEO of the American Association for the Advancement of Science.
He's also a former congressman from New Jersey.
And he joins me now.
Welcome to the "NewsHour."
RUSH HOLT, CEO, American Association for the Advancement of Science: Good to be with you,
William.
Thank you.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Can you give us a sense just of the scope and scale of the kinds of
science that have been idled by the shutdown?
RUSH HOLT: Sure.
It's thousands and thousands of scientists who are missing their weekly paycheck, but
they are also running into delays, disruptions, sometimes ruination of their research projects.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Ruination?
RUSH HOLT: Well, suppose you have a timed series, and you have to get a sample every
week, every month for it to work.
Suppose you're doing field study and you're looking at stream creatures when the stream
is at a certain level in January.
Suppose you are preparing a space mission, a satellite science mission.
You have got a certain launch window.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I hadn't even thought about those kinds of impacts.
RUSH HOLT: Suppose you're looking at insects, and you have to look during the week in the
year when they mate.
You know, if the government is closed that week, and you can't collect the data, that's
a problem.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Such a remarkable array of work that we don't really think of as necessarily
being government-funded work.
I mentioned some of the agencies at the top.
Are there other federal agencies or even those that are doing particular work that you know
of that has come to a stop?
RUSH HOLT: The National Science Foundation, of course, is all fields of science.
The Census Bureau.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The Census Bureau?
(CROSSTALK)
RUSH HOLT: Out of the Department of Commerce.
They -- there are many social scientists either that use those data or are employed to analyze
those data.
The weather forecasters are kept on the job.
But the people who tweet the weather models are not.
And, as we see snowstorms predicted in the East here, we will see whether these weather
forecasters are as accurate as they might normally be.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Do you think that, when we look back a year or two, three years from
now, that there will be a demonstrable impact on the scientific community and scientific
research in the U.S.?
RUSH HOLT: It's going to be hard to measure, but I don't doubt it.
It's very interconnected.
But at a time when we are concerned in international comparisons about how the U.S. science effort
stacks up, this is not a good time to slow down.
The Chinese just landed on the dark side of the moon.
And we have researchers who think that they should be doing work to help national security
and human welfare and safety and public health, the very things that are at stake here.
They're waiting at home for the phone call to go back to work.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Rush Holt of the American Association for the Advancement of Science,
thank you very much.
RUSH HOLT: Thank you.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And speaking of science, our next story explores ways virtual reality can
help advance medicine.
Cat Wise reports for our Breakthroughs series on the Leading Edge.
CAT WISE: A quiet journey through a scenic woodlands, a dangerous leap between two buildings,
a tour of the International Space Station, lifelike experiences made possible these days
through the lenses of virtual reality headsets.
The technology now used to battle evil was first used more than 20 years ago to help
patients overcome phobias.
Since then, virtual reality use in the medical field has come a long way.
NARRATOR: Also, V.R. allows you to practice modern surgical techniques any time, anywhere.
CAT WISE: A growing number of medical schools are using V.R. to help students practice operating
room skills, to engage in realistic patient interactions, and to learn the intricacies
of the human body.
Some hospitals are now using V.R. to counsel patients about complex interventions and to
help reduce stress and pain during difficult procedures.
Here in Oakland, California, the UCSF Benioff Children's Hospital is among the first in
the country to take pediatric patients and their families on a virtual reality tour of
their own brain.
MAN: Straight down to it.
And, actually, did you want to grab it?
CAT WISE: Roughly three dozen patients, ages 6 to 18, have taken the virtual tour prior
to having surgery for cancer, epilepsy and several other disorders.
The technology, which generates a virtual model of a patient's own anatomy from C.T.
and MRI scans was developed by a startup called Surgical Theater.
MAN: Mom and dad see me?
We're going all the way inside Jade's brain.
CAT WISE: The family's tour guide is also their neurosurgeon, Dr. Kurtis Auguste.
DR.
KURTIS AUGUSTE, UCSF Benioff Children's Hospital: I tell people all the time, as I'm preparing
for surgery scrolling through MRIs, if only I could shrink myself down to this small,
and insert myself into this space, and just take a look around.
And that's effectively what you can do with this technology.
CAT WISE: Dr. Auguste has been performing brain surgeries on children for more than
a decade.
He's often had to convey complex information using plastic brain models, 2-D images, and
even paper and pen.
DR.
KURTIS AUGUSTE: And then I have the same conversation using V.R., it's just like the clouds part,
and they have this epiphany, like, oh, that's what you were talking about.
It still kind of gives me goose bumps, because these kids, they just really engage with it.
CAT WISE: The virtual worlds of video games are a welcome distraction for Jake Levin,
a 15-year-old from Reno, Nevada, who often has more serious matters on his mind.
Jake has epilepsy.
He's been having almost daily seizures, like the one in this home video, since middle school.
Recently they have prevented him from playing his favorite sport, basketball, competitively.
But Jake and his parents finally have some hope, an upcoming surgery to remove a small
area of his brain causing the seizures.
Before then, they were anticipating their first virtual reality experience.
NATHANIE CLANCY, Mother: When Dr. Auguste mentioned it to us, I just thought that was
so cool.
As strange as it sounds, I want to see the piece of tissue that's caused all these problems.
JAKE LEVIN, Patient: I had one buddy who kept texting me, saying, have you flown through
your brain yet, have your flown through your brain yet?
CAT WISE: That day finally arrived.
DR.
KURTIS AUGUSTE: Hello.
How are you guys doing?
Nice to see you.
Welcome, welcome, welcome.
CAT WISE: Dr. Auguste began the session by showing the family a rendering of Jake's head
with electrodes that were implanted several weeks before to determine where his seizure
activity was occurring.
DR.
KURTIS AUGUSTE: You can see how we strategically place all these electrodes.
CAT WISE: Then it was time to go inside.
DR.
KURTIS AUGUSTE: You guys think you want to fly for a little bit?
Everybody strapped in here?
Keep your arms and hands inside the ride at all times.
(LAUGHTER)
CAT WISE: After orienting the family in the new space...
DR.
KURTIS AUGUSTE: OK, good.
Now, stop for a second, mom.
Look over your right shoulder.
NATHANIE CLANCY: Oh, yes.
DR.
KURTIS AUGUSTE: OK, good.
And then, Jake and dad, do you see mom and me?
All right, good.
So, here we are.
CAT WISE: Dr. Auguste led them to the trouble spot.
DR.
KURTIS AUGUSTE: All these electrodes here, these turquoise little dots, quiet, quiet,
quiet, quiet, until we get to here, until we get to electrode number three.
And this is the source of your epilepsy.
CAT WISE: The red, orange, and yellow dots represent the electrical activity causing
Jake's seizures.
DR.
KURTIS AUGUSTE: The good news here is that this is very, very safe -- it's actually the
preferential place to be for brain surgery.
CAT WISE: While still exploring, I asked mom and dad what the experience was like.
MATT LEVIN, Father: It provides a visceral experience compared to looking at 2-D models.
It's just incredible.
It's just amazing.
NATHANIE CLANCY: I was excited about it, but this was like 10 times better.
CAT WISE: As for Jake?
JAKE LEVIN: It's so much cooler than a video game.
I'm feeling much more confident than I thought I would.
CAT WISE: But virtual reality does have its skeptics.
MARISA BRANDT, Michigan State University: Right now, virtual reality has a lot of hype
behind it.
CAT WISE: Michigan State University's Marisa Brandt has been studying virtual reality trends
for the past decade.
MARISA BRANDT: I think that there's a lot of potential benefit, but we don't want to
be premature about it solving a lot of problems.
If we want this to be a caring technology, we really have to make sure that it's something
that's for and helps connect people, not something that's used to disengage.
CAT WISE: Dr. Auguste agrees.
He's been consulting, for free, for now, with the company that designed the technology.
But he says his patients are his first priority.
DR.
KURTIS AUGUSTE: First and foremost, I'm a surgeon.
I am the advocate of this child.
I'm not an advocate of this technology.
Those of us on the front lines, the innovators, the ones who are introducing this technology,
have the most responsibility to hold on to the things that make us human beings.
The face-to-face contact and being able to read someone's physical cues, are they comfortable,
are they not, that's so important.
CAT WISE: Just days after his brain tour, Jake's surgery went smoothly.
He's recovering now and hoping to be seizure-free and back on the basketball court by next season.
For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Cat Wise in Oakland, California.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Jake, we wish you well.
And on our Bookshelf tonight, Jeffrey Brown talks to an author who raises awareness of
rape.
JEFFREY BROWN: December, 2012, 23-year-old Jyoti Singh, out to see a film with a male
friend, is gang-raped and beaten on a bus in Delhi.
The attack and her death days later brought international attention and condemnation.
Shortly after, an essay appeared in The New York Times that began: "Thirty-two years ago,
when I was 17 and living in Bombay, I was gang-raped and nearly killed."
The title, "I Was Wounded; My Honor Wasn't."
The writer was Sohaila Abdulali.
SOHAILA ABDULALI, Author, "What We Talk About When We Talk About Rape": We owe it to our
kids to not have this be a taboo subject, and also to teach them respect for boys and
girls.
Just I think it all boils down to a basic respect of, you don't feel like you can go
around the world just marauding and hurting people.
And this is one of the ways it happens.
And this is a really damaging way, because we all get so weird about rape.
JEFFREY BROWN: Now she's written a book, "What We Talk About When We Talk About Rape, that
explores the subject from many angles, not so much giving answers as raising questions.
What is it that we get wrong in our thinking about rape?
SOHAILA ABDULALI: We make it bigger than it should be, and at the same time, we make it
smaller than it should be.
It's such a loaded subject.
If you think of one person, say in a bedroom, being raped by one man, a woman and a man,
it's a very personal act at that moment.
But then you sort of pull back the camera, and you see the world and all that things
that have led to this.
It's much bigger.
So I think it is wrong any time we try to make it too much with one lens, in a way.
I think we do disservice to both men and women the way we think about rape.
We assume that men can't help themselves, and we also assume that women are completely
broken and destroyed, which sometimes they are, but often they're not.
JEFFREY BROWN: There's a tension you write about throughout your life that comes through
in the book about having been raped, but not wanting it to define you.
SOHAILA ABDULALI: What defines me is not that I was raped, but that I took this on as a
subject.
I'm 55.
I look back, and there are so many things, and all those things happen to you and they
make you what you are.
It was a big thing.
I'm not trying to say it's not a big thing.
But it wasn't the big thing.
JEFFREY BROWN: Abdulali grew up in Mumbai, then called Bombay.
Two years after being attacked by armed men while out for a walk with a male friend, she
boldly wrote about it in an Indian magazine, using her own name and photograph, becoming
a rare public voice for a crime usually kept silent.
She's been back and forth between the U.S. and India since the 1970s.
She worked in a rape crisis center as a journalist, became a writer, author of two novels, married
and has raised a daughter, who's now herself 17.
In the new book, she has chapter titles such as "Who Am I to Talk?," "Totally Different,
Exactly the Same," and "Teflon Man."
She offers personal stories of other rape victims about their experiences and how they
coped, and explores key, often complex issues such as the meaning of consent.
SOHAILA ABDULALI: I believe firmly that consent is important and crucial, and that it's important
to talk about things like affirmative consent.
But I also think that, no matter how many rules and guidelines we set down, until there's
a basic thing of somebody caring how you feel, until you have two people together and each
of them cares whether the other wants it or notices if the other's having a good time,
no amount of words will help.
We need the words.
We need to train guys that you should care whether the woman's into it, and we need to
train ourselves that it matters what we want, because words are great, but I think there's
more going on with consent.
JEFFREY BROWN: So, you write about why women keep silent.
Partly, it is about a sense of shame enculturated, but, partly, you say, because it often doesn't
lead to anything.
SOHAILA ABDULALI: Even in this day of MeToo, there's really not much reward for speaking
out.
Look at the whole Kavanaugh thing with Christine Blasey Ford testifying, and there were so
many senators and people who said, well, why should we believe her?
She should have reported it right away.
To me, having been through it, it's so completely clear why she didn't speak up.
You just want to put your clothes on and be done with it.
You know you won't be believed.
You feel embarrassed that you were in the room with this boy.
It makes perfect sense.
JEFFREY BROWN: Early on in the book you say, "Now I realize that sometimes rape does have
to do with sex."
Usually, rape is talked about as power.
SOHAILA ABDULALI: It is an act of power, there's no question, but what you're actually has
to do with sex.
I'm never going to say rape is sex, because it's not, but it's a sexual weapon, almost,
that you're using.
For instance, when I was raped, it was this gang of men.
They were armed.
I think they were on drugs.
I'm not sure.
They thought that, as a girl, I shouldn't be out wandering with a boy.
So it's not that it was sex, but there was a sexual rage there.
So that's what I'm talking about.
It's like a perversion of sex.
JEFFREY BROWN: What do victims of rape deserve from us, from people, from society?
SOHAILA ABDULALI: I think they deserve to be listened to and to be believed and to not
have the default be, you're a liar or there's something wrong with you.
They deserve to be seen as people who are still the same people they were before they
were raped and not broken beings.
But they also deserve to be seen as people who have been through terrible trauma, and
they deserve to be supported.
And they deserve justice, a system that actually holds men accountable, rapists.
JEFFREY BROWN: You started writing this before the MeToo movement really exploded.
Do you think that movement changes things?
SOHAILA ABDULALI: I think MeToo has been amazing, and especially in India right now.
It's really exploded and it's fantastic.
But what does that mean, change?
I think it's changed the conversation.
Whether, anywhere, one rape less happens because of it, I have no idea.
I hope so, but how do we know?
JEFFREY BROWN: You're looking back at this horrifying experience that you had when you
were 17.
And you have a 17-year-old daughter now yourself.
SOHAILA ABDULALI: I do.
She knows what happened to me.
And we told her at a young enough age.
She knows I'm OK.
And, as a parent, I got asked this question before.
It was like, do you worry about your daughter now that this happened to you?
But why wouldn't -- I mean, doesn't every parent do that?
I hope nothing happens to her, but, if something does, I know that she can be OK.
I know she can be grow up and be a happy person.
I know she can have a good life, because I know this because it happened to me.
JEFFREY BROWN: The book is "What We Talk About When We Talk About Rape."
Sohaila Abdulali, thank you very much.
SOHAILA ABDULALI: Thank you.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Powerful to think about.
And that's the "NewsHour" for tonight.
I'm Judy Woodruff.
Thank you, and we'll see you soon.
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