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♪ [THEME MUSIC] ♪
>> HELLO.
WELCOME TO ELDRIDGE & CO..
HIS STUDENTS AND CREDENTIALS
TELL US HE IS AWESOME AND THAT'S
BECAUSE OF HIS UNLIMITED
INTEREST, KNOWLEDGE,
AND RESEARCH OF GOVERNMENT,
POLITICS, EDUCATION AND
NONPROFITS.
THAT IS WHY I AM SO PLEASED TO
SAY DR. HEATH BROWN, ASSOCIATE
PROFESSOR OF PUBLIC POLICY AT
JOHN JAY COLLEGE AND THE CUNY
GRADUATE CENTER IS MY GUEST
TODAY.
>> WHERE WOULD WE BE
WITHOUT CUNY STUDENTS SAYING
GREAT THINGS ABOUT US?
WHERE WOULD WE BE WITHOUT
CUNY?
>> CERTAINLY THE STUDENTS
ARE VERY IMPRESSED WITH YOU,
THAT IS FOR SURE.
>> I AM IMPRESSED WITH
THE STUDENTS.
THEY'RE AMAZING.
I TRY TO WORK AS HARD AS MY
STUDENTS AND MY STUDENTS WORK
HARD, DURING THE DAY, DURING THE
NIGHT.
IT IS FINALS SEASON RIGHT NOW.
I TRY TO JUST WORK WITH THEM.
>> WHAT DID THIS MIDTERM
ELECTION DO?
DID IT CHANGE SOME THOUGHTS AND
PRACTICES?
>> I THINK WHAT WE
WILL SEE IS THE IMPACT OF THAT
ELECTION COMING SOON.
ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS AT THE
START OF THE NEW YEAR WE'LL
SEE EXACTLY WHICH ISSUES THE
DEMOCRATS PUT FORWARD FIRST.
THAT IS GOING TO TELL US A LOT
ABOUT WHAT THE NEXT TWO YEARS
ARE GOING TO BE LIKE.
WHETHER THEY USE THEIR NEW
MAJORITY TO PURSUE A REFORM OF
CONGRESS, CHANGING
CAMPAIGN-FINANCE, ETHICS LAWS
OR CHOOSING OTHER THINGS.
TIGHTENING UP HEALTH CARE,
EDUCATION, WHAT HAVE YOU.
THAT AGENDA IS GOING TO BE SUPER
INTERESTING TO CONNECT THE
MIDTERM ELECTIONS TO GOVERNANCE.
>> AND ALSO THE
PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE
FORGETTING ABOUT 2020 FOR A LONG
TIME.
WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT
IT EVERY SINGLE DAY IN PART
BECAUSE CANDIDATES ARE GOING TO
START TO STEP FORWARD AND
SAY THAT THEY'RE RUNNING.
THIS NEW HOUSE MAJORITY IS GOING
TO START INVESTIGATING HOW THEY
CAN PROVIDE OVERSIGHT OVER THE
EXECUTIVE BRANCH THAT THEY ALL
CAMPAIGNED ON.
THAT OVERSIGHT ROLE OF CONGRESS
IS GOING TO BE INTERESTING AND
FASCINATING TO WATCH.
>> DO YOU THINK THE
GOVERNMENT IS WORKING WELL?
>> IT DEPENDS ON WHERE
YOU ARE LOOKING.
ONE OF THE THINGS WE WANT TO PAY
ATTENTION TO, WE HAVE A LARGE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WITH LOTS OF
MOVING PARTS.
IT IS SO LARGE THAT NO ONE
INDIVIDUAL CAN DO MUCH TO MAKE
IT WORK BETTER OR WORSE.
THERE ARE LOTS OF EXAMPLES OF
PLACES THAT ARE STRUGGLING.
THE EPA, THERE ARE COUNTLESS
STORIES OF THE GOVERNMENT SIMPLY
NOT WORKING AS WELL AS IN THE
PAST.
THERE ARE OTHER AREAS THAT ARE
CONTINUING TO WORK VERY WELL.
WE HAVE A LARGE BUREAUCRACY THAT
IS DOING A LOT AND EVEN THE
ELECTION OF A NEW PRESIDENT WITH
A DIFFERENT VISION FOR WHAT
THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD
BE DOING CANNOT DO A LOT TO
CHANGE ALL THAT.
>> ONE OF THE THINGS YOU'VE
WRITTEN ABOUT WAS
ON THE TRANSITION AND THE
IMPORTANCE OF THE TRANSITION.
IT SEEMS TO ME THAT WE ARE A
LITTLE FOOLED WITH THE CURRENT
PRESIDENT BECAUSE HE IS IN THE
MEDIA ALL THE TIME.
UNDERNEATH HIM, THE GOVERNMENT
IS REALLY WORKING THE WAY SOME
OF HIS SUPPORTERS WANTED IT TO
BE AND THOSE SUPPORTERS REFLECT
THE TRANSITION AND THE
APPOINTMENTS AND THE AGENCIES.
I DON'T THINK WE CONNECT THE
PRESIDENT WITH THE EVERYDAY
OPERATION.
>> SOME OF BEING PRESIDENT IN
THE WHITE HOUSE
IS A MAGIC TRICK, WITH ONE HAND
THEY SHOW YOU ONE THING AND
WITH THE OTHER THEY'RE DOING
ALL SORTS OF THINGS AND IT IS
THAT MAGIC TRICK THAT EXPRESSES
WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.
THE PRESIDENT CAN SAY A LOT, BUT
THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF OTHER
THINGS GOING ON THAT WE NEVER
ACTUALLY SEE AND IT IS DURING
THAT CHANGE OF POWER, WHAT WE
CALL THE TRANSITION, WE SEE A
LOT OF THAT HAPPENING.
MOST OF IT HAPPENING THAT WE DO
NOT GET TO OBSERVE AND THAT IS
SORT OF BY DESIGN.
THE TRANSITION PERIOD HAS BEEN
MADE VERY NONTRANSPARENT.
A LOT OF POMP AND CIRCUMSTANCE
IN THE INAUGURATION BUT A LOT
WENT ON BEHIND CLOSED DOORS AND
IT WAS ON PURPOSE.
THERE'S A REASON WHY THOSE
DOORS ARE OPENED UP
TO THE PUBLIC.
WE OFTEN ARE NOT GOING TO BE TOO
PLEASED WITH WHAT WE MIGHT SEE.
IT IS THAT LACK OF TRANSPARENCY
THAT LEADS TO SOME OF THE THINGS
WE WORRY MOST ABOUT,
INCLUDING THE INFLUENCE OF
MONEY, CORRUPTION, --
WE HAVE LOTS OF EVIDENCE OF THAT
HAPPENING IN 2016.
>> EVEN LOBBYING BEGINS
EARLIER IN THE TRANSITION.
THE TRANSITION TEAM IS ALREADY
THE RESULT OF LOBBYING.
>> IT HAPPENS LONG
BEFORE ELECTION DAY.
IF YOU ARE A SAVVY LOBBYIST.
IF YOU HAVE AN INTEREST IN
WASHINGTON, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO
WAIT UNTIL THE PERSON IS
ELECTED.
YOU ARE GOING TO START WELL
BEFORE THAT.
IN THE SUMMER, A LOT OF MEETINGS
HELD BETWEEN THE TRANSITION TEAM
THAT HAS NOT EVEN BEEN ELECTED
YET, BUT THEY ARE PREPARED.
THEY'RE DOING THAT FOR GOOD
REASONS.
A LOT NEEDS TO GET DONE.
IT IS SMART TO GET READY FOR A
TRANSITION EARLY.
WE ALSO SEE PEOPLE GETTING IN AS
EARLY AS THEY CAN AND THAT IS
THE CONCERN FOR DEMOCRACY.
WHETHER SOMEONE WHO IS A
CAMPAIGN DONOR CAN TRADE ON THAT
DONATION TO INFLUENCE THINGS
BEFORE THE ELECTION HAS EVEN
BEEN HELD, BEFORE A VOTE OR EVEN
CASTS OF VOTE, MANY OF THE
IMPORTANT DECISIONS ARE ALREADY
MADE ABOUT WHO'S GOING TO BE
APPOINTED, ABOUT CHANGES IN
GOVERNMENT, AMOUNT OF FUNDING
AND SO FORTH.
IT IS THOSE THINGS THAT HAPPEN
BEFORE WE EVEN GET TO KNOW WHO
THE ELECTED PRESIDENT IS AND
THAT KIND OF SECRECY IS THE
BIGGEST THREAT TO DEMOCRACY.
>> WAS THAT COMPOUNDED LAST
TIME WITH THE CHANGE AND
DIRECTION OF THE TRANSITION?
>> IN 2016, WHILE HILLARY
CLINTON AND DONALD TRUMP
WERE PLANNING, THERE WERE
CONSCIENTIOUS EFFORTS ON BOTH
PARTS TO BEGIN THE PLANNING
PROCESS.
WHAT DONALD TRUMP DID WAS
BASICALLY NEGATE A LOT OF THAT
WORK.
ALL THE WORK OF HIS TRANSITION
TEAM HAD BEEN DOING WAS CANCELED
AND THEY STARTED FROM SCRATCH.
WHEN YOU START FROM SCRATCH IN
WASHINGTON, IT TENDS TO
ADVANTAGE ONE LARGE GROUP AND
THAT HIS DONORS AND FINANCIAL
CONTRIBUTORS.
THEY HAVE THE RESOURCES TO START
AND STOP ON A DIME.
FOR THAT REASON, WHAT PRESIDENT
TRUMP DID WHICH WAS BASICALLY
SAY TO CHRIS CHRISTIE, THANK YOU
FOR YOUR TIME PLANNING THE
TRANSITION, WE WILL HANDLE
THIS ON OUR OWN.
IT OPENED LOTS OF OPPORTUNITIES
FOR SPECIAL INTERESTS AND DONORS
AND ALL SORTS, MAYBE SOME OF THE
CONCERNS WE HAVE ABOUT MAJOR
INTERNATIONAL CORRUPTION,
ENTERING INTO THE PROCESS OF
TRANSITIONING.
THAT HAS ACCELERATED THE CHAOS.
>> WILL OUR PRACTICES
CHANGE AS A RESULT OF THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION?
>> THERE ARE ANY
NUMBER OF WAYS IN WHICH SOME
REAL SMART BIPARTISAN CHANGES
CAN HAPPEN BETWEEN NOW AND
ELECTION DAY.
THOSE ARE CHANGES THAT WILL BOTH
MAKE THE COUNTRY SAFER, SAFER
FROM FINANCIAL CALAMITY,
INTERNATIONAL PROBLEMS, IT WILL
ALSO MAKE THE DEMOCRACY MUCH
STRONGER AND GIVE PEOPLE A MUCH
BETTER VOICE.
PART OF THE PROBLEM IS WE GET
VERY FOCUSED ON ELECTION DAY AND
VOTING.
THAT IS JUST ONE PART OF THE
DEMOCRACY.
THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF OTHER
THINGS THAT VOTERS AND EVEN
NONVOTERS CAN GET INVOLVED WITH.
THAT IS AN AREA I THINK WHERE
LEGISLATION CAN CHANGE.
>> DO YOU THINK WE WILL
ACTUALLY HAVE THAT?
YOU AND I HAVE TALKED BEFORE
ABOUT ENCOURAGING PARTICIPATION
IN GOVERNMENT.
IT IS SO IMPORTANT.
I WAS THINKING THE OTHER DAY,
LOOKING AT WHO VOTES.
WE NEVER GET THAT FAR OVER 50%
OF ELIGIBLE VOTERS VOTING.
>> EXCEPT IN
PRESIDENTIAL YEARS WHERE IN SOME
GROUPS WE GET MORE THAN THAT.
>> BUT TOTAL.
>> BUT IN MOST
ELECTIONS, YOU ARE RIGHT.
IN MIDTERM ELECTIONS, WE GET FAR
UNDER THAT.
ALL THE DIFFERENT ELECTIONS WE
HAVE, RARELY DO WE GET A
MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION
TURNING OUT TO VOTE.
>> THE YOUNGER VOTERS ARE
THE -- HAVE THE LEAST TENDENCY
TO VOTE.
>> THE PROBABILITY OF
A YOUNG REGISTERED VOTER TURNING
OUT IS MUCH LOWER THAN OTHER AGE
GROUPS.
>> ISN'T THAT A REFLECTION
OF THE EDUCATION WE ARE
PROVIDING?
>> IT IS ALSO A
REFLECTION OF THE PRACTICE AND
HABIT OF VOTING.
ONE OF THE REASONS WHY PEOPLE
WHO ARE OLDER TEND TO VOTE IS
THEY HAVE MORE PRACTICE DOING IT
AND THEY HAVE DONE IT MORE IN
THE PAST AND THEY HAVE TURNED IT
INTO A HABIT.
PART OF WHAT SCHOOLS AND CIVIC
EDUCATION CAN DO A BETTER JOB OF
DOING IS TURNING ELECTIONS AND
VOTING INTO A HABIT THAT STARTS
BEFORE ONE BECOMES ELIGIBLE TO
VOTE.
>> YOU ALSO HAVE TO HAVE AN
UNDERSTANDING.
I HAVE A GRANDSON WHO THINKS HE
IS A LIBERTARIAN.
WE ARE IN A LOT OF DISCUSSIONS.
HE IS SO CYNICAL ABOUT
GOVERNMENT.
THAT SHOULD NOT BE.
KIDS SHOULD BE TAUGHT THIS FROM
A VERY EARLY STAGE, WHAT IT
MEANS.
>> THE VALUE OF PUBLIC
PARTICIPATION, THE VALUE OF
GOVERNMENT,
IF IT IS NOT INSTILLED
IN AN EARLY AGE, IT IS A REAL
PROBLEM.
THE RESEARCH WE HAVE ON
MILLENNIALS, A GROUP THAT HAS
BEEN A WORRY FOR A LOT OF
PEOPLE,
THAT THEY ARE SO CYNICAL, THAT
THEY ARE NEVER GOING TO
PARTICIPATE IN POLITICS, THAT
THEY ARE SO DISTRACTED BY OTHER
ASPECTS OF THEIR LIVES THAT
THEY'RE NEVER GOING TO VOTE.
THE RESEARCH ON MILLENNIALS DOES
NOT SUGGEST THOSE CONCERNS ARE
AS FOUNDED AS WE THINK.
THE RESEARCH SUGGESTS THEY ARE
BOTH NOT AS CYNICAL AS WE MIGHT
THINK, BUT THEY ARE ALSO NOT AS
POLITICALLY POLARIZED.
THEY ARE MUCH MORE MODERATE IN
THEIR VIEWS ON CERTAIN ISSUES.
IF YOU LOOK AT STUDENT DEBT, YOU
DON'T SEE A MODERATE GROUP OF
PEOPLE.
MILLENNIALS CARE ABOUT
STUDENT DEBT.
>> YOU COULD SEE HOW
IMPORTANT IT IS TO VOTE.
I REMEMBER A SPEECH BOBBY
KENNEDY MADE ABOUT SOME ELECTION
-- YOUR VOTE IS VERY IMPORTANT,
THAT WAS ALL I COULD THINK.
IF PEOPLE UNDERSTOOD THAT
BETTER, MAYBE THEY WOULD SEE IT.
>> IT IS HARD TO SEE
HOW YOUR INDIVIDUAL VOTE WORKS
AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL.
WE HAVE SO MANY PEOPLE IN THE
COUNTRY, THAT ANYONE VOTE,
IT IS A HARD IDEA TO GET IN
SOMEONE'S HEAD.
IN MY MIND, THAT IS WHY LOCAL
ELECTIONS MATTER SO MUCH.
THE VOTE MATTERS MORE AND THE
IMPACT MATTERS MORE.
YOU CAN SEE WHAT IS GOING ON IN
LOCAL SCHOOLS AND LOCAL PARKS.
IT IS THOSE LOCAL ELECTIONS
UNFORTUNATELY THAT TEND TO HAVE
THE LOWEST TURNOUT BUT THE
BIGGEST IMPACT ON OUR LIVES.
IF WE BETTER CONNECT WITH LOCAL
POLITICS, IT BECOMES A MORE
PROFOUND THING.
>> ALEXANDRIA CORTEZ IS
AN EXAMPLE OF AN
ELECTION, IT TOOK IN A LOT OF
THINGS YOU TALKED ABOUT, THE
IMPORTANCE OF SPEAKING TO
IMMIGRANT GROUPS AND DIFFERENT
LEVELS THAT ON THE OTHER HAND IT
IS EVIDENT THAT ON A LOCAL
LEVEL, YOU NEED TO HAVE SOME
VOTES CAST.
SHE GOT 14,000 VOTES.
WHICH SHOWS HOW POORLY --
>> IN THE PRIMARY
ELECTION.
YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT.
WHAT SHE WAS ABLE TO DO WAS
FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET TO PEOPLE
IN WAYS THAT OTHER CANDIDATES
MAY NOT HAVE.
SOME OF THAT IS BECAUSE OF HER
MESSAGE.
SOME OF THAT IS BECAUSE OF WHO
SHE IS.
THIS IS A VERY DYNAMIC CANDIDATE
WHO CONNECTED WITH PEOPLE ON A
VERY PERSONAL LEVEL.
BUT IT WAS ALSO EFFECTIVE
STRATEGY AND SHE HAD PEOPLE
AROUND HER WHO WERE ABLE TO
DEVELOP A STRATEGY THAT WAS NOT
EXPENSIVE.
THAT IS THE REAL ISSUE.
>> THAT IS THE KEY.
>> IF WE THINK OF
TURNING PEOPLE OUT AND
COMMUNICATING DURING CAMPAIGNS
AS NECESSITATING
EXTREME LEVELS OF SPENDING, THEN
WE GET OURSELVES IN REAL PICKLE.
WHAT SHE SHOWED IS YOU DO NOT
HAVE TO SPEND THE MAXIMUM AMOUNT
ON YOUR CAMPAIGN AND CAN STILL
CONNECT WITH PEOPLE AND GET THE
TURNOUT.
IT IS THOSE BOOTS ON THE GROUND
TURNOUT THAT I'M SURE YOU KNOW
FIRSTHAND FROM YOUR TIME IN
CAMPAIGN POLITICS, THAT MATTERS
A LOT BUT IT IS NOT NECESSARILY
VERY EXPENSIVE.
>> AND THE PRESIDENTIAL
ELECTIONS ARE NOW SO
CONCENTRATED ON RAISING MONEY TO
SPEND ON TELEVISION ADVERTISING.
IT NEGATES A LOT OF THE
GRASSROOTS.
THAT'S UP TO A CANDIDATE NOW,
NOT THE PARTY.
ARE THE PARTIES SO WEAKENED
IN THE COUNTRY?
>> SOME OF THE CAMPAIGN
FINANCE RULE CHANGES HAVE LED
TO INDIVIDUAL CANDIDATES AND
INDIVIDUAL SPENDING
ORGANIZATIONS HAVING MUCH MORE
POWER THAN THEY DID IN THE PAST.
POLITICAL PARTIES WERE THE
CENTER AND MOST POWERFUL PART OF
POLITICS IN AMERICAN GOVERNMENT
FOR A LONG TIME.
THAT IS NOT THE CASE NOW.
AN INDIVIDUAL, ONE BILLIONAIRE
WHO DECIDES THEY WANT TO PUT
MONEY BEHIND A DARK MONEY GROUP
THAT IS GOING TO BUY CAMPAIGN
ADS, AS LONG AS THEY ABIDE BY A
COUPLE SMALL RULES, THEY ARE
ABLE TO HAVE A BIG INFLUENCE ON
ELECTORAL OUTCOMES.
PART OF WHAT PARTIES DO IS SAY
YOU HAVE TO ACT COLLECTIVELY.
WHEN WE HAVE COLLECTIVE ACTION,
THAT IS WHEN YOU HAVE DEMOCRACY
WORKING WELL.
WHEN YOU HAVE INDIVIDUALS ABLE
TO ABIDE BY THE LAW AND SPEND
MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF
DOLLARS, THAT IS WHEN WE HAVE A
REAL PROBLEM.
>> OUR GOVERNMENT IS CALLED
WHAT, A REPRESENTATIVE
DEMOCRACY?
>> WE ARE.
>> WHAT OTHER COUNTRIES ARE
REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACIES?
>> MOST COUNTRIES ARE.
THERE IS NO COUNTRY THAT IS A
TRUE DEMOCRACY.
THE VERSION CHANGES BASED ON THE
RULES AND WHETHER THE
ORGANIZATION IS PARLIAMENTARY OR
YOU HAVE OTHER STYLES OF
GOVERNMENT.
ALL ACROSS THE WORLD, WE CHOOSE
PEOPLE TO ACT ON OUR BEHALF.
>> WE HAVE TWO VERY
POWERFUL BODIES AS FAR AS THE
LEGISLATURE GOES.
>> ON THE NATIONAL
LEVEL, ABSOLUTELY.
>> WAS THAT DEVELOPMENT DUE
TO A SPECIAL CHARACTERISTIC OF
THE PEOPLE WRITING THE
CONSTITUTION?
>> IT HAD TO DO WITH
THEIR DISTRUST OF INDIVIDUALS,
OF PEOPLE, AND A NATIONAL
GOVERNMENT.
A NATIONAL GOVERNMENT DID NOT
EXIST AT THE TIME THEY WERE
WRITING THE CONSTITUTION, SO
MOST OF IT IS THE RESULT OF
THESE DEEP DEEP WORRIES AND
CONCERNS THAT DEMOCRACY IS NOT
GOING TO WORK AND BUILDING
INSTITUTIONS TO PROTECT PEOPLE
FROM THEMSELVES,
AND A LOT OF THE --
PART OF THE CONSTITUTIONS
WE THINK ABOUT ARE DESIGNED
TO DO JUST THAT, PUT
MORE DISTANCE BETWEEN US AS
CITIZENS AND THE DECISIONS MADE
ON OUR BEHALF.
>> SO, IT'S THE COMPOSITION
OF THE SENATE AND THE
ELECTORAL COLLEGE, RIGHT?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
THOSE ARE TWO EXAMPLES.
IT IS THE DESIGN OF THE HOUSE
AND THE SENATE AND THE DIFFERENT
WAYS IN WHICH THEY ARE DESIGNED,
AND ALL THE RULES THAT ARE PUT
IN PLACE AND HOW ELECTED
OFFICIALS ARE CHOSEN.
>> IF WE CONTINUE THE
POLARIZATION WE HAVE, I AM
CONFUSED ABOUT IT ALL, BUT THE
ELECTORAL COLLEGE, THAT IS WHAT
ELECTED TRUMP.
WE KNOW THAT.
IT IS BECAUSE SOME STATES --
WHERE CAN WE EVER REFORM IT?
I DON'T THINK WE CAN GET RID OF
IT.
>> THE CONSTITUTION
CAN BE CHANGED BUT IN MOST WAYS,
IT SEEMS HIGHLY UNLIKELY THAT WE
WOULD FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE THE
ELECTORAL COLLEGE -- ONE OF THE
AREAS THAT STATES HAVE THE MOST
POSSIBILITY TO MAKE CHANGES IS
IN THE WAY IN WHICH THEY
DISTRICT.
THERE IS A RANGE OF WAYS THAT
THEY CHOOSE TO DO THAT.
WHEN THEY DO THAT IN MOST HIGHLY
POLITICIZED WAYS, WE CALL IT
GERRYMANDERING.
GERRYMANDERING RULES ARE
SOMETHING WE CAN PAY MORE
ATTENTION TO.
THAT WOULD REQUIRE A MUCH MORE,
A MUCH STRONGER VOTER RIGHTS
ACT.
THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT WAS
ESSENTIALLY GUTTED A COUPLE
YEARS AGO BY THE SUPREME COURT.
THE HOUSE AND SENATE TODAY COULD
PUT BACK IN PLACE, MANY OF THE
PROTECTIONS IN THE ORIGINAL
VOTING RIGHTS ACT AND BY DOING
SO, SOME OF THE CONCERNS WE HAVE
ABOUT GERRYMANDERING THAT HAS
INEQUITABLE OUTCOMES FOR
AFRICAN-AMERICANS, FOR GROUPS OF
VOTERS THAT ARE POOR, COULD BE
DEALT WITH THAT WAY.
>> DO YOU SEE THE CURRENT
SENATE DOING THAT?
>> IT SEEMS UNLIKELY,
BUT THAT IS AN AREA WHERE YOU
MIGHT HAVE THOSE CHANGES.
CHANCES ARE THE CHANGES YOU WILL
SEE ARE ON A STATE-BY-STATE
BASIS AND WITH A MOVE AWAY FROM
POLITICIZED DISTRICTING TO
SOMEWHAT MORE NON-POLITICIZED.
IN MOVING FROM ONE TO THE OTHER,
WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO IS FIGURE
OUT WHO IS GOING TO MAKE THE
DECISIONS ABOUT HOW DISTRICTS
ARE SHAPED.
WE HAVE NOT FOUND A GOOD WAY IN
WHICH TO DO THAT, THAT
DOES NOT HAVE SOME KIND OF
POLITICAL ROLE PLAYED.
>> IT IS INTERESTING HOW IT
GOES ROUND AND ROUND.
THE STATES COULD CHANGE THE
ELECTORAL PROCESS A LITTLE BIT,
BY NOT HAVING IT WINNER TAKE ALL
IN DIFFERENT STATES.
>> YOU COULD DO
PROPORTIONAL ALLOCATION OF YOUR
ELECTORAL VOTES.
IT COULD THEN BE DIVIDED UP SO
THAT IF YOU WON A MAJORITY OF
THE VOTE IN WISCONSIN, YOU WOULD
GET THE 51% OR 60% OR SOMETHING
LIKE THAT OF YOUR ELECTORAL
COLLEGE VOTES.
THAT IS A POSSIBILITY.
>> ARE THERE STATES THAT DO
THAT?
>> THERE ARE A COUPLE
STATES.
THOSE ARE CHANGES.
WHETHER THOSE CHANGES WOULD
GREATLY ALTER THE WAY IN WHICH
NATIONAL POLITICS PLAYS OUT.
WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY.
THE UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES
OF DECISIONS ARE VERY HARD TO
ANTICIPATE.
THAT IS A CHANGE THAT COULD
HAPPEN IN THE STATES.
>> DO YOU REMAIN
DISPASSIONATE ABOUT THE
POLITICAL SIDE OF GOVERNMENT?
>> IT DEPENDS ON WHAT
YOU MEAN BY THE POLITICAL SIDE.
AS A SOCIAL SCIENTIST,
WHAT I TRY TO DO IS SEPARATE MY
BELIEVES ON WHAT IS RIGHT TO DO
FROM TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT
IS BEING DONE.
A LOT OF THIS HAS TO DO WITH
PAYING ATTENTION TO INSTITUTIONS
AND NORMS AND WHAT ARE THE
INSTITUTIONS IN PLACE AND
WHEN ARE THEY VIOLATED AND
WHAT OUR NORMS, ANOTHER NONLEGAL
WAY TO ENFORCE GOOD BEHAVIOR AND
WHEN ARE THEY IN PLACE AND WHEN
ARE THEY VIOLATED?
TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHEN THE
THE INSTITUTIONS ARE SET UP
RIGHT AND WHEN NORMS ARE FAIR IS
A GOOD WAY TO THINK ABOUT WHAT
IS RIGHT NORMATIVELY AND WHAT IS
ACTUALLY GOING ON.
WHETHER WE HAVE THE RIGHT
INSTITUTIONS AND NORMS IS
ANOTHER QUESTION BUT AS A SOCIAL
SCIENTIST, I TRY TO KEEP THOSE
THING SEPARATE.
MUCH EASIER TO SAY THAN
ACTUALLY DO BECAUSE WHEN YOU SEE
ONE OF YOUR OWN PERSONAL BELIEFS
IT IS VERY HARD TO REMAIN
DISTANT FROM THAT.
IT IS ONE OF THE THINGS WE
ASPIRE TO.
>> IS THERE A REASON, IS IT
CAMPAIGN FINANCING, THAT WE HAVE
SO MANY MILLIONAIRES IN
THE CONGRESS?
>> THAT IS ONE OF THE REASONS.
ONE OF THE OTHER REASONS IS THAT
WE RARELY ASK NON-MILLIONAIRES
TO RUN FOR OFFICE.
IT IS VERY RARE THAT ONE OF THE
TWO POLITICAL PARTIES ASKS
SOMEBODY WHO IS WORKING CLASS.
WHEN YOU DON'T ASK SOMEBODY TO
RUN, THEY DON'T RUN.
ONE OF THE INTERESTING AREAS OF
REFORM IS FINDING WAYS TO FIND
CREATIVE AND NEW CANDIDATES FOR
OFFICE.
THAT TAKES WORK BECAUSE IF
SOMEONE IS NOT PERSONALLY
WEALTHY, IT MEANS THEY PROBABLY
DO NOT HAVE MUCH FREE TIME AND
IT IS UNLIKELY THEY ARE GOING TO
VOLUNTEER TO RUN FOR OFFICE.
IT TAKES A LOT OF WORK AND IS
TIME-CONSUMING.
THE PROGRAMS THAT ARE IN PLACE
TO ENCOURAGE WORKING-CLASS
CANDIDATES, CANDIDATES WHO ARE
NOT FROM -- WHO ARE NOT LAWYERS
OR PROMINENT IN BUSINESS, TO
CONSIDER RUNNING FOR OFFICE, IS
ONE OF THE EXCITING AREAS THAT
WE HAVE THE LOOK FORWARD TO IN
THE FUTURE.
IF WE COULD GET A DIVERSE GROUP
OF CANDIDATES RUNNING FOR
OFFICE, WE COULD GET MASSIVE
CHANGE IN WASHINGTON.
>> WE DON'T HAVE THAT MANY
WEALTHY OR EVEN LAWYERS IN THE
NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL.
WE WILL SEE WHAT HAPPENS IN THE
ASSEMBLY IF THEY LIMIT OUTSIDE
INCOME.
WHAT HAPPENS THEN IS THAT IT
BECOMES -- BECAUSE YOU
DON'T HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY NOT
TO RUN BECAUSE IT IS THE WAY YOU
ARE SUPPORTING YOURSELF AND
YOUR FAMILY.
>> THERE IS A
TRADE-OFF BETWEEN MAKING
POLITICS A CAREER IN SOME OF THE
BENEFITS OF THAT AND ALSO SOME
OF THE COST.
THERE ARE LOTS OF BENEFITS OF
HAVING LONG-STANDING
LEGISLATURES.
THEY GAIN EXPERIENCE, WISDOM AND
WHEN WE HAVE THINGS LIKE TERM
LIMITS OR PEOPLE ARE ONLY ABLE
TO SERVE TWO TERMS, IT SOMETIMES
FEELS LIKE THE RIGHT THING
TO DO, BUT THERE ARE ALL SORTS
OF PROBLEMS WITH THAT AND ONE
OF THE PROMINENT PROBLEMS IS
THAT WORKS TO THE ADVANTAGE
OF PROFESSIONAL LOBBYING.
WHEN YOU HAVE SOMEONE WHO HAS
ONLY SERVED A SINGLE TERM,
YOU'RE A GREAT ADVANTAGE AS A
LOBBYIST.
WHEN YOU ARE TRYING TO LOBBY
SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN IN THE
LEGISLATURE FOR 5, 6 OR 7
TERMS, THERE IS NO TRICKING
THAT PERSON.
THE TRADE-OFFS BETWEEN THE
PERMANENCE OF A CAREER AND SOME
OF THE PROBLEMS THAT RAISES WITH
THE PROBLEMS OF TRYING TO
RESTRICT THE NUMBER OF TERMS
SOMEONE CAN SERVE IS A REAL
THORNY PROBLEM FOR THOSE THAT
ARE INTERESTED IN DEMOCRACY.
THERE IS NO OBVIOUS SOLUTION BUT
I THINK IT IS SOMETHING PEOPLE
THINK AND TALK A LOT ABOUT.
>> HOW DID YOU BECOME SO
INTERESTED IN ALL OF THIS TO
BEGIN WITH?
>> TO GO BACK, I
ATTENDED BOTH PUBLIC AND PRIVATE
SCHOOLS IN NEW YORK CITY AND ALL
THE WAY SINCE I WAS VERY YOUNG,
MANY OF THESE THINGS WERE VERY
INTERESTING TO ME.
ULTIMATELY, I MOVED TO
WASHINGTON, D.C. WITH FRIENDS
AND IT WAS AT THAT POINT THAT I
GOT THE CHANCE TO INTERN FOR A
MEMBER OF CONGRESS FROM NEW
JERSEY, HEAD OF THE
CONGRESSIONAL
BLACK CAUCUS AT THE TIME.
HE PASSED AWAY RECENTLY AND HIS
SON IS NOW SERVING IN THAT SEAT.
MY TIME WORKING FOR HIM WHEN HE
WAS A MEMBER OF CONGRESS TAUGHT
ME SO MUCH ABOUT HOW GOVERNMENT
WORKED BUT ALSO HOW TO BRING
COMPASSION AND CONCERN.
HE WAS CONCERNED DEEPLY ABOUT
THE PEOPLE OF NEWARK, AND IT WAS
HIS UNDERSTANDING OF GOVERNMENT
THAT HE SHARED WITH HIS STAFF
AND I LEARNED FROM IT AND THAT
MOTIVATED ME TO GO INTO THIS.
>> WOULD YOU EVER THINK OF
RUNNING FOR OFFICE?
>> NOT RIGHT NOW.
I LOVE TOO MUCH TEACHING
STUDENTS AT CUNY.
I LOVE PARTS OF MY JOB THAT ARE
SO INCREDIBLY REWARDING.
WORKING WITHIN CUNY AND WITH
CUNY STUDENTS AT UNDERGRADUATE
AND GRADUATE LEVELS.
GIVING THAT UP FOR ANYTHING
WOULD BE NOT VERY EASY FOR ME.
I LOVE WHAT I DO.
>> WE HAVE COME TO THE END
OF THIS INTERVIEW.
YOUR STUDENTS ARE LUCKY, THAT IS
FOR SURE.
I HOPE YOU WILL COME BACK AGAIN
AND WE WILL HAVE MORE TO TALK
ABOUT.
>> I WOULD LOVE TO
COME BACK.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
>> IT GOES FAST.
♪ [THEME MUSIC] ♪
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