>>> GOOD EVENING. I'M CHRIS MATTHEWS IN
WASHINGTON. A LATE-BREAKING STORY TONIGHT IN
"THE NEW YORK TIMES" SHEDS NEW LIGHT ON THE RUSSIAN CAMPAIGN TO
INFLUENCE THE 2016 ELECTION THROUGH THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN.
ACCORDING TO THE TIMES, QUOTE, AMERICAN SPIES COLLECTED
INFORMATION LAST SUMMER REVEALING THAT SENIOR RUSSIAN
INTELLIGENCE AND POLITICAL OFFICIALS WERE DISCUSSING HOW TO
EXERT INFLUENCE OVER DONALD TRUMP THROUGH HIS ADVISERS.
THE CONVERSATION FOCUSED ON PAUL MANAFORT, THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN
CHAIRMAN AT THE TIME, AND MICHAEL FLYNN, A RETIRED GENERAL
WHO WAS ADVISING MR. TRUMP. TONIGHT WE LOOK AT HOW
INVESTIGATORS CONTINUE TO BORE DOWN ON DONALD TRUMP EVEN AS HE
POSES WITH THE POPE AND GOES TO IMPRESSIVE MEETINGS IN EUROPE.
LOOK, WE KNOW THIS IS A SERIOUS BUSINESS.
THIS RUSSIAN DEAL OF TRUMP'S, THE FBI IS ON THE CASE, THE
FORMER CIA DIRECTOR JUST SAID HE DOESN'T LIKE THE LOOKS OF IT.
AND WE NOW HAVE A SPECIAL COUNSEL GEARING UP AND TRUMP
HIMSELF IS STARTING TO LAWYER UP.
WELL, TONIGHT I WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT WE ALREADY KNOW AND HOW WE
CAN KNOW WHAT THE COUNTRY NOW NEEDS TO KNOW ABOUT HOW TRUMP
AND HIS CAMPAIGN COULD HAVE BEEN IN CAHOOTS WITH THE RUSSIANS
DURING LAST YEAR'S ELECTION. WELL, YESTERDAY AS I SAID,
FORMER CIA DIRECTOR JOHN BRENNAN TESTIFIED.
HE BECAME AWARE OF NUMEROUS TRUMP ASSOCIATES WHO HAD MADE
CONTACT WITH RUSSIAN ACTORS THAT WE NOW KNOW INCLUDES MICHAEL
FLYNN, PAUL MANAFORT, CARTER PAGE, ROGER STONE, JEFF
SESSIONS, AND TRUMP'S OWN SON-IN-LAW, JARED KUSHNER.
FURTHER, AS TRUMP -- APPEARS TO ENGAGE IN A PATTERN OF
OBSTRUCTIVE BEHAVIOR, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER
MICHAEL FLYNN IS REFUSING TO COOPERATE WITH CONGRESSIONAL
INVESTIGATORS. THE RANKING MEMBER OF THE HOUSE
INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE, U.S. CONGRESSMAN ADAM SCHIFF OF
CALIFORNIA, TOLD NBC THIS MORNING THAT HIS COMMITTEE IS
NOW ISSUING SUBPOENAS SINCE FLYNN HAS DECLINED TO COMPLY
WITH THEIR REQUEST VOLUNTARILY. >> WE ARE IN DISCUSSIONS ABOUT
ISSUING THE REQUISITE SUBPOENAS NOW.
IT WILL BE NECESSARY, I THINK, TO SUBPOENA NOT ONLY HIS PERSON
BUT HIS BUSINESSES AND, OF COURSE, EXPLORE WHAT OTHER
REMEDIES MAY BE NECESSARY IF HE REFUSES TO COMPLY.
>> WELL, THIS COMES AFTER FLYNN REFUSED TO DELIVER SUBPOENAED
DOCUMENTS TO THE SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE BY
CLAIMING HIS FIFTH AMENDMENT RIGHT AGAINST
SELF-INCRIMINATION. CHAIRMAN RICHARD BURR CHALLENGED
THAT CLAIM YESTERDAY, THREATENING TO HOLD FLYNN IN
CONTEMPT OF CONGRESS. >> WE HAVE SENT A LETTER TO
GENERAL FLYNN'S LAWYER TODAY QUESTIONING, ONE, WHETHER YOU
CAN TAKE THE FIFTH AS IT RELATES TO DOCUMENT PRODUCTION.
IF, IN FACT, THERE'S NOT A RESPONSE, WE'LL SEEK ADDITIONAL
COUNSEL ADVICE ON HOW TO PROCEED FORWARD.
AT THE END OF THAT OPTION IS A CONTEMPT CHARGE.
>> ADDITIONALLY, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN ADVISER CARTER PAGE
SAYS HE EXPECTED TO TESTIFY BEFORE THE HOUSE INTELLIGENCE
COMMITTEE DURING THE WEEK OF JUNE 6th.
THAT'S COMING ON. WE'RE GOING TO DISCUSS WITH
SENATOR FEINSTEIN IN A MINUTE, BUT FIRST I'M JOINED BY NICK
CONFESSORE. NICK, THIS IS FASCINATING.
THE RUSSIANS NOW, ACCORDING TO YOUR NEWSPAPER, WERE SITTING
AROUND THE POLITICAL PEOPLE, THE INTEL PEOPLE, THE SPIES, TRYING
TO FIGURE OUT HOW, WELL, OUR SPIES WERE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT
WHAT THEY WERE UP TO IN TERMS OF GETTING TO TRUMP THROUGH
MANAFORT, THROUGH FLYNN. WHAT DO WE KNOW?
>> THIS IMPORTANT STORY SHOWS HOW DEEP THE RELATIONSHIPS WERE
BETWEEN PEOPLE IN PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ORBIT AT THE TIME OF THE
CAMPAIGN LAST YEAR, AND IT SHEDS SOME LIGHT ON WHY THE AMERICAN
INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES WERE ACTUALLY GETTING SO WORRIED
ABOUT THE PROSPECT OF RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE IN THE ELECTION.
BASICALLY, RUSSIAN POLITICIANS AND SPIES WERE BRAGGING ABOUT
THEIR ABILITY TO GET TO PRESIDENT TRUMP THROUGH THEIR
RELATIONSHIPS WITH PEOPLE LIKE PAUL MANAFORT, WHO HAD LONG DONE
BUSINESS IN EASTERN EUROPE AND HAD SOME TIES TO RUSSIAN
INDUSTRIALISTS. >> WHO SET UP THESE GUYS WITH
TRUMP? I UNDERSTAND THE CONNECTION.
GENERAL FLYNN WAS WORKING FOR THE RUSSIANS.
HE GOTOT $34,000 FROM THEIR PROPAGANDA ARM, RT.
HE WAS OVER THERE SITTING WITH PUTIN.
WE'VE GOT THAT ESTABLISHED. WE KNOW THAT MANAFORT WORKED
FOR -- WHAT CAME FIRST? THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG?
DID THOSE RUSSIANS KNOW THEY HAD THOSE PEOPLE WORKING FOR THEM
AND HOW DO THEY CONNECT THEM WITH TRUMP?
HOW DID THEY GET THEM JOBS WITH TRUMP?
>> I THINK WE'RE NOT REALLY SURE YET IF THE RUSSIANS HAD A ROLE
IN OF STAFFING THE CAMPAIGN. I THINK THE FACTS IN THIS STORY
SHOW THAT THE RUSSIANS REALIZED THAT THEY ALREADY HAD THESE
BUILT-IN RELATIONSHIPS WITH PEOPLE IN TRUMP'S INNER CIRCLE
AND COULD USE THEM POSSIBLY TO TRY TO STEER THE CAMPAIGN.
AND RECALL BACK DURING THE CAMPAIGN, WE SAW PRESIDENT TRUMP
SPEAKING FAVORABLY ABOUT RUSSIA, FAVORABLY ABOUT PUTIN.
WE SAW A CHANGE IN THE PLATFORM AT THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL
CONVENTION FAVORING RUSSIA IN THE CRIMEA.
SO OBVIOUSLY THERE WAS SOME MOVEMENT IN THE CAMPAIGN TOWARD
RUSSIA, AND THE QUESTION WE HAVEN'T ANSWERED YET IS IF THESE
RUSSIAN SPIES OR AGENTS WERE ABLE TO CONNECT WITH THEIR
ALLIES OR FRIENDS OR CONTACTS IN MR. TRUMP'S ORBIT AND GET THOSE
THINGS TO HAPPEN OR NOT. >> WHAT ABOUT THE MEETINGS THAT
WE'VE WATCHED AND TRACKED ALL ALONG INVOLVING JARED KUSHNER,
INVOLVING FLYNN, INVOLVING, YOU KNOW, EVERY ONE OF THESE PEOPLE?
THERE'S SO MANY PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR TRUMP WHO SEEM TO BE BUMPING
INTO, HOLDING MEETINGS WITH RUSSIANS.
>> YEAH, IT'S KIND OF AMAZING THE OVERLAP AND THE INTRICATE
KIND OF WEB OF RELATIONSHIPS AND CONTACTS.
LOOK, A LOT OF IT WAS BUSINESS. WE KNOW THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP,
AFTER HIS BANKRUPTCY, HAD SOME PROBLEMS GETTING FINANCING FROM
MOST AMERICAN BANKS, AND HIS KIDS HAVE SAID THAT THEY GOT A
LOT OF INVESTMENT FOR THEIR DEALS FROM RUSSIA.
SO OBVIOUSLY PRESIDENT TRUMP IN HIS BUSINESS LIFE HAD
RELATIONSHIPS WITH WEALTHY PEOPLE IN RUSSIA AND, OF COURSE,
AS YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO ARE WEALTHY IN RUSSIA OFTEN HAVE
RELATIONSHIPS IN TURN WITH THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT, WITH PUTIN.
SO THERE IS ALMOST AN EXCESS. IT'S ALMOST OVERDETERMINED HOW
CONNECTED THE TRUMP ORBIT WAS TO DIFFERENT PLAYERS IN RUSSIA.
BUT TO BE FAIR, IT'S IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT, CHRIS, WE HAVEN'T
YET FOUND THAT SMOKING GUN OR THAT EVIDENCE THAT SHOWS
MANIPULATION OR DIRECT COLLUSION AS THEY SAY.
>> OKAY. IT SEEMS LIKE ONLINE DATING OR
SOMETHING. THIS WEIRD CONNECTION BETWEEN
TRUMP AND THE RUSSIANS. SOMEBODY KEEPS BRINGING THEM
TOGETHER, THESE MEETINGS AFTER MEETINGS, THE MONEY CHANGING
HANDS. THANK YOU SO MUCH, NICK
CONFESSORE. LATE TODAY I SPOKE WITH SENATOR
DIANNE FEINSTEIN OF CALIFORNIA, RANKING DEMOCRAT ON THE SENATE
JUDICIARY COMMITTEE AND A LONG TIME MEMBER AND FORMER CHAIR OF
THE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE. SENATOR FEINSTEIN, WHAT TOOLS DO
YOU HAVE TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS CASE?
>> WELL, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. IT'S REALLY THE SUBPOENA, AND I
GUESS AS CHAIRMAN BURR SAID, IF THAT DOESN'T WORK, IT'S HOLDING
THE INDIVIDUAL IN CONTEMPT. NOW, I AGREE WITH WHAT OUR
CHAIRMAN SAID, AND I THINK THAT'S A PROPER ACTION TO TAKE.
ALSO ON THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE, AS YOU KNOW, THE SUBCOMMITTEE
HAS HELD HEARINGS, AND SALLY YATES CAME BEFORE IT.
AT THAT POINT, I THINK I REALLY REALIZED THE IMPACT OF GETTING
WITNESSES DIRECTLY BEFORE THE CONGRESS.
AND I THINK THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.
SO I THINK WE OUGHT TO PROCEED WITH ALL DELIBERATE SPEED.
I LISTENED TO YOUR NETWORK YESTERDAY, LAST EVENING, AND I
HEARD JACKIE SPEIER FROM THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES SAY ON
THAT COMMITTEE, WHICH IS INTELLIGENCE, WE WANT TO FOLLOW
THE MONEY. PEOPLE ARE INTERESTED AND
INVOLVED BUT WE NEED THOSE FINANCIAL EXPERTS TO GIVE US THE
CAPABILITY TO DO SO CORRECTLY. AND THAT RAISES A GOOD POINT,
AND THAT IS THAT ALL INVESTIGATING COMMITTEES NEED
THOSE STAFFERS THAT HAVE THE ABILITIES THAT THE KIND OF
INVESTIGATION NEEDS. AND THAT WOULD MEAN FORMER
PROSECUTORS, PERHAPS FORMER U.S. ATTORNEYS.
YOU KNOW, I TAKE YOU BACK TO THE 9/11 COMMITTEE, CHRIS.
THEY HAD A BIG STAFF, ALMOST 100 PEOPLE, AND THEY HAD
PROFESSIONALS. SO WE HAVE PEOPLE THAT ARE
PROFESSIONAL IN THE INTELLIGENCE WORLD ON INTELLIGENCE, BUT
THAT'S NOT, IN MY JUDGMENT, GOING TO DO IT.
I DO THINK AND I AGREE SENATOR HARRIS, I BELIEVE, BELIEVES THE
SAME THING, THAT WE DO NEED PEOPLE WHO HAVE INVESTIGATIVE
SKILLS. >> ARE THE REPUBLICANS WHO RULE
THESE COMMITTEES BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE SENATE THIS THEIR
CONTROL, ARE THEY COOPERATING AND GEARING UP WITH THE RIGHT
STAFF PEOPLE, THE ACCOUNTANTS, THE OTHER PEOPLE THAT CAN DO
THIS KIND OF INVESTIGATION? ARE THEY DOING THE JOB OF
STAFFING UP? >> WELL, I DON'T THINK SO, NOT
TO THE EXTENT THAT WE SHOULD. I MEAN IF I WERE IN THE HOUSE
INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE, I WOULDN'T BE SHY ABOUT SAYING,
LET'S GO AND GET OUR FINANCIAL PEOPLE THAT WE NEED TO HELP WITH
THIS. SO I SUPPORT REPRESENTATIVE
SPEIER IN WHAT SHE SAID YESTERDAY.
ON THE SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE, I LOOK FORWARD TO
INDIVIDUALS COMING BEFORE OUR COMMITTEE AS A WHOLE.
I THINK YOU GET A VERY DIFFERENT THING FROM SOMEBODY WHEN THEY'RE
ASKED QUESTIONS BY A MEMBER OF THE UNITED STATES SENATE RATHER
THAN STAFF OF THE SENATE. I'M SORRY TO SAY THAT, BUT I'VE
SEEN IT HAPPEN CHAPTER AND VERSE ALL THE TIME.
>> WELL, MICHAEL FLYNN SEEMS TO KNOW A LOT, AND HE ALSO SEEMS
VERY VULNERABLE TO INDICTMENT FOR HIS OWN MISDEEDS, FAILING TO
FILL OUT THE FORMS PROPERLY, ADMITTING THAT HE GOT THE MONEY
FROM THE RT, THE PROPAGANDA NETWORK OF THE SOVIET UNION,
THAT $34 MILLION SAYING IT CAME FROM DOMESTIC SOURCES.
HE SEEMS TO HAVE A LOT OF EXPOSURE AS THEY SAY IN THE LAW.
OBVIOUSLY HE WANTS IMMUNITY. OBVIOUSLY HE'S GOING TO TAKE
EVERY FIFTH RIGHT HE CAN IMAGINE.
EVEN OVER DOCUMENTATION. CAN HE USE THE FIFTH AMENDMENT
TO PROTECT COMPANY RECORDS? >> WELL, THAT'S AN INTERESTING
POINT, AND I THINK -- I DON'T MEAN TO PARSE IT, AND I'M NOT A
LAWYER. BUT I THINK IT DEPENDS ON WHAT
TYPE OF COMPANY RECORD IT IS. I HAVE NO CERTAINTY IN THIS
AREA, BUT IF IT'S A PERSONAL BUSINESS, IT WOULD SEEM TO ME
THAT HE SHOULD. IF IT'S A CORPORATION, IT'S A
DIFFERENT THING PERHAPS. BUT I DON'T KNOW THIS FOR SURE,
AND I THINK THAT'S ONE THING THAT LEGAL COUNSEL HAS TO GIVE
STRONG ADVICE ABOUT. >> WELL, THE PRESIDENT SEEMS
WORRIED ENOUGH TO GET A LAWYER, WHICH MAKES CERTAINLY GOOD
SENSE. MARK CASS OH WITS HAS BEEN HIS
ATTORNEY FOR YEARS. HE KNOWS THIS GUY IS SOMEONE HE
CAN TRUST TO KEEP HIS MATTERS SECRET.
THE AVERAGE VOTER OUT THERE, AND I DON'T THINK JUST PROGRESSIVES
OR PEOPLE ON THE DEMOCRATIC LEFT ARE INTERESTED.
I THINK PRACTICALLY EVERYBODY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF OUR
ELECTIONS WERE MEDDLED IN BY THE RUSSIANS, WHICH THEY BELIEVE THE
ANSWER THERE IS YES, THEY'D LIKE TO KNOW MORE IMPORTANTLY, DID
ANY AMERICANS GET INVOLVED IN HELPING THEM, IN HELPING THEM
MESS WITH OUR ELECTION, MEDDLE WITH IT, SHIFT ITS RESULTS
PERHAPS IN THE WAY THEY DID. DO YOU HAVE CONFIDENCE THE
UNITED STATES CONGRESS AND THE FBI AND THE SPECIAL COUNSEL
WILL, IN A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME, TELL US WHETHER IT
HAPPENED OR NOT? >> WELL, LET ME SPEAK TO THAT.
I HOPE -- I'M TRYING TO FIND BOB MUELLER'S PHONE NUMBER BECAUSE I
WOULD LIKE TO TALK TO HIM. HE WAS FBI DIRECTOR WHEN I WAS
HERE. HE WAS ALSO A UNITED STATES
ATTORNEY WHEN I WAS MAYOR OF SAN FRANCISCO.
I HAVE GREAT RESPECT FOR HIM. I THINK HE'S ONE OF THE BEST
THINGS THAT'S HAPPENED. >> YEAH.
>> AND I THINK AS SPECIAL COUNSEL, HIS ROLE IS
EXTRAORDINARILY IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT PROTECTS AN HONEST
TOTAL FBI INVESTIGATION, AND THAT INVESTIGATION SHOULD
PROCEED AS QUICKLY AND FIRMLY AS IT CAN SO THAT A PROSECUTION CAN
BE WORKED OUT WHERE IT IS DESERVED.
AND I THINK AS INDEPENDENT COUNSEL, BOB MUELLER IS GOING TO
BE VERY VALUABLE. BOTH SENATOR GRASSLEY AND I
WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO TALK WITH HIM AND SEE WHAT HE HAS IN
MIND. WE'RE REALLY THE OVERSIGHT BODY
ON JUDICIARY FOR THE FBI, AND THE FBI IS THE INVESTIGATIVE
BODY HERE. SO IT'S IMPORTANT THAT THE
CONGRESS STAY AWAY FROM THE FBI INVESTIGATION.
IT'S IMPORTANT TO KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING THAT WE HAVE TO
STAY AWAY FROM, BUT I THINK IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT THAT WE CONTINUE
OUR INVESTIGATIONS AND THAT THE PEOPLE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO
HEAR WITNESS TESTIMONY WHEN APPROPRIATE.
>> DIANNE FEINSTEIN, SENATOR FROM CALIFORNIA, THANK YOU SO
MUCH FOR COMING ON THE PROGRAM. I'M JOINED BY U.S. CONGRESSMAN
JIM HINE SERKS. YOU JUST HEARD THE SENATOR TALK
ABOUT THE NEED FOR SPECIALIZATION.
YOU NEED PEOPLE THAT CAN CHECK PAPERWORK, CAN CHECKBOOK
KEEPING, AND FIND OUT WHETHER THERE'S ANY KIND OF HOKEY --
SOMETHING THAT WAS NOT REALLY RIGHT GOING ON HERE.
HAN KI PAN KI IF YOU WILL
REGARDING THE BUSINESS DEALINGS OF THE TRUMP PEOPLE WITH REGARD
TO RUSSIA. DO YOU HAVE ADEQUATE STAFF TO
PERFORM THAT FUNCTION? >> I THINK ON THE HOUSE SIDE WE
DO RIGHT NOW. BUT AS WE REVIEW DOCUMENTS, AS
WE INTERVIEW PEOPLE, YOU GET A WHOLE NEW TROVE OF INFORMATION,
POSSIBLY THE IMPLICATION OF OTHER PEOPLE.
WE'LL RESERVE THE RIGHT TO ASK FOR MORE RESOURCES.
>> DO YOU THINK YOUR COMMITTEE IS WILLING TO PUT PEOPLE IN JAIL
FOR NOT TESTIFY SOMETHING ARE WE REALLY GOING TO SEE CONTEMPT
CARRIED ALL THE WAY TO THE POINT WHERE SOMEBODY IS EITHER GOING
TO TALK OR THEY'RE GOING TO JAIL UNTIL THEY TALK?
>> THERE'S A COUPLE OF MECHANISMS THAT THE CONGRESS CAN
USE TO GET THE DOCUMENTS MICHAEL FLYNN HAS SAID HE WILL NOT
PROVIDE. THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE --
CERTAINLY THE SENATE SINCE THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
RIGHT NOW, THEY CAN ASK THEIR COUNSEL TO GO AND IN CIVIL
COURT, DEMAND THE ENFORCEMENT OF THOSE SUBPOENAS.
AND OF COURSE AN INDIVIDUAL CAN BE HELD IN CONTEMPT OF CONGRESS.
WE HOPE IT DOESN'T COME TO THAT, BUT GETTING TO THE BOTTOM OF
THIS INVESTIGATION AND UNDERSTANDING WHETHER THERE WAS
WRONGDOING, WHETHER THERE WAS ANY SORT OF COLLUSION OR LINK
WITH RUSSIANS, WHAT PEOPLE DID ABOUT IT AFTERWARDS, REMEMBER,
SOMETIMES IT'S THE COVER-UP THAT TILLS YOU, NOT WHAT UNDERLIES
THE COVER-UP. >> YOU SAY YOU HOPE IT DOESN'T
COME TO THAT. WHAT'S WRONG WITH COMING TO
THAT? LET'S GET TO IT.
WHY DON'T YOU ISSUE THE SUBPOENAS NOW, GET THIS RING
-- THING ROLLING.
>> MICHAEL FLYNN HAS SAID HE'S NOT GOING TO COMPLY WITH THE
SUBPOENA. >> MAKE HIM.
>> YEAH, WE'VE GOT THAT OPTION. SADLY, WHEN PEOPLE DON'T COMPLY
WITH SUBPOENAS OR
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