FOLKS, MY FIRST GUEST TONIGHT IS A CO-ANCHOR OF "CBS THIS
MORNING."
HE'S BEEN REPORTING ON WASHINGTON SINCE 1995, AND
NOBODY'S BETTER AT MAKING SENSE OF IT.
PLEASE WELCOME, JOHN DICKERSON!
♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ SOLDIERS, KEEP ON WARRING ♪
>> Stephen: HEY, HOW YOU BEEN?
>> I'VE BEEN WELL.
>> Stephen: SUMMER'S-- SUMMER'S GOING-- IS OPENING
BEFORE YOU LIKE A PLOSOM?
>> WELL, IT'S ALMOST HALF OVER.
SO I HATE TO -- >> Stephen: SHUT UP.
SHUT UP.
I DON'T WANT TO HEAR THAT.
NO ONE WANTS TO THINK ABOUT THAT, JOHN.
>> ONE THING IS HAPPENING AFTER ANOTHER.
>> Stephen: YOU HAD YOUR BIRTHDAY ON JULY 5.
YOU TURNED 50.
>> I TURNED 50, YEAH ( APPLAUSE ).
>> Stephen: CONGRATULATIONS.
YOU WEAR IT-- YOU WEAR IT WELL.
YOU WEAR 50 WELL.
AND I DIDN'T GET THE INVITATION TO THE PARTY.
WHAT-- >> WELL WE HAD IT-- BUT YOU'VE
THROWN ONE FOR ME TONIGHT.
IT'S SO SWEET.
YOU BROUGHT ALL THESE PEOPLE HERE.
( APPLAUSE ).
>> Stephen: LET'S TALK ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE WORLD
RIGHT NOW.
OKAY, THIS COHEN AUDIO THAT-- WE-- WE KNEW THE RECORDINGS
EXISTED, BUT WE DIDN'T KNOW IF WE'D EVER BE ABLE TO HEAR THEM.
WE HEARD THIS RECORDING.
GUILIANI SAYS THIS IS GOOD FOR THE PRESIDENT.
IN WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR THE PRESIDENT TO BE GOING ALONG WITH
A SCHEME TO PAY OFF HIS MISTRESS?
OR THE PEOPLE WHO OWN THE STORY ABOUT HIS MISTRESS?
TO BE CAUGHT IN A LIE?
>> RIGHT, NOT OUR WORLD.
AND THE LIE-- HERE'S THE THING-- YOU CANNOT SAY YOU DON'T KNOW
ABOUT SOMETHING AND THEN BE ON TAPE ORCHESTRATING THE
ARRANGEMENT OF THE THING YOU PREVIOUSLY SAID YOU DIDN'T KNOW
ABOUT.
THAT'S NOT-- YOU-- THAT'S NOT -- >> Stephen: HE'S THAT GOOD.
( LAUGHTER ) >> BUT THAT-- THAT'S WHAT THIS
IS.
>> Stephen: I AGREE.
>> AND BY THE WAY, THIS IS SEPTEMBER OF 2016.
THIS IS AN ALLEGED RELATIONSHIP THAT TOOK PLACE 10 YEARS AGO.
SO I THINK PEOPLE CAN MAKE A CASE, WHATEVER CASE THEY WANT TO
MAKE, ABOUT THINGS IN THE PAST.
THIS IS BEHAVIOR RIGHT BEFORE AN ELECTION, AND THEN, OBVIOUSLY,
THINGS WERE SAID AS PRESIDENT ABOUT HIS KNOWLEDGE.
THIS.
SO IT'S QUITE A SERIOUS DEAL IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, WE SHOULD
STILL THINK THAT OUR PRESIDENT SHOULD TELL US THE TRUTH ABOUT
THINGS.
AND WHEN THEY DON'T, WHETHER IT'S BILL CLINTON OR DONALD
TRUMP OR ANYBODY ELSE, WE SHOULD SAY THAT'S A BIG DEAL.
SO IT'S NOT GOOD, I SHOULD SAY.
>> Stephen: WELL, YOU ARE A JOURNALIST AND YOU ARE A NEWSMAN
AND YOU ARE ADMIRABLY EVEN-HANDED IN REPORTING THINGS.
BUT IT SEEMS LIKE WE NO LONGER LOOK TO DONALD TRUMP-- NO ONE
REALLY LOOKS TO DONALD TRUMP TO SAY LIKE, "OH, WELL I EXPECT HIM
TO BE TRUTHFUL."
WE'RE GRADING LIES ON A SCALE, WHETHER THIS IS A LIE THAT IS
IT'S "OH, IT'S BENIGN.
IT'S NOT ACTUALLY A CRIME.
IT'S HIM LYING ABOUT HAVING AN AFFAIR 10 YEARS BEFORE RIGHT
AFTER HIS CHILD WAS BORN."
>> RIGHT AND -- >> Stephen: IT'S NOT BETRAYING
OUR COUNTRY TO A HOSTIL FOREIGN POWER.
>> RIGHT, RIGHT.
>> Stephen: THAT'S THE SCALE.
>> AND REMEMBER THE SCALE THEY CHANGED FOR BILL CLINTON.
WHEN BILL CLINTON WAS CAUGHT LYING, THEY SAID, "LOOK, HE WAS
JUST LYING ABOUT AN AFFAIR.
PEOPLE DO THAT ALL THE TIME.
IT'S NOT A BIG DEAL."
>> Stephen: SURE.
>> BUT WHAT PEOPLE RIGHTLY SAID AT THE TIME IS WE THINK ABOUT
OUR PRESIDENCY, IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN FOUNDED AROUND THE IDEA OF
HONESTY.
WE CALLED HIM "HONEST ABE."
THE FIRST STORY WE TELL ABOUT OUR FIRST PRESIDENT IS GEORGE
WASHINGTON CUTTING DOWN THE TREE AND SAYING I CANNOT TELL A LIE,
WHICH TURNS OUT TO NOT BE TRUE.
>> Stephen: SO THE FIRST STORY OF HONESTY IS A LIE.
>> YES.
( APPLAUSE ).
>> RIGHT, NO, NO.
IT'S QUITE TRUE.
BUT IT TELLS US SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT WE WANT TO BELIEVE ABOUT
OUR PRESIDENTS.
>> Stephen: SURE.
>> THAT WE EMBED THIS IN OUR FOR US PRESIDENT AND HAVE EVER
SENSE.
NOW, OBVIOUSLY, PRESIDENTS HAVE TOLD LIES HERE AND THERE IN A
VARIETY OF DIFFERENT WAYS, AND AS YOU QUITE RIGHTLY POINT OUT
THIS IS NOT ABOUT A NATIONAL SECURITY UNTRUTH.
BUT IT IS A BIG DEAL.
WE SHOULD STILL THINK IT'S A BIG DEAL WHEN THE PRESIDENT SAYS
SOMETHING AND IT TURNS OUT NOT TO BE THE CASE.
AND BACK TO YOUR ORIGINAL QUESTION, WHEN YOU'RE HEARD ON
TAPE SAYING-- ARRANGING THIS DEAL, THAT SHOULD BE-- THAT
SHOULD BE A PROBLEM -- >> Stephen: SHOULD.
DO YOU THINK IT WILL BE?
PROGNOSTICATE.
DO YOU THINK THIS WILL STICK?
>> WELL, IT DEPENDS WHAT YOU MEAN BY "STICK," RIGHT?
>> Stephen: HAVE ANY EFFECT ON HIS SUPPORT AMONG HIS BASE?
BECAUSE THERE'S VERY LITTLE MIDDLE GROUND AT THIS POINT,
RIGHT?
>> WELL-- >> Stephen: IS THERE MIDDLE
GROUND?
PEOPLE ARE LIKE, "I'M NOT SURE ABOUT HIM.
I HAVEN'T MADE UP MY MIND YET ABOUT DONALD TRUMP.
I NEED TO KNOW MORE."
DO YOU MEET THESE PEOPLE?
"I'M NOT ENTIRELY SURE?
TRUMP?
TRUMP?" >> ACTUALLY, I DO THINK THERE
ARE SOME PEOPLE LIKE THAT WHO SAY, "LOOK, I DON'T LIKE THE WAY
HE BEHAVES FOR REASON A., B., C., BUT I LIKE LOWER REGULATIONS
THE FACT THAT HE'S MADE PROGRESS IN NORTH KOREA."
THAT GO DOWN THE LIST AND SAY NOBODY IS PERFECT.
>> Stephen: THOSE PEOPLE HAVE MADE UP THEIR MIND.
THEY'VE DONE THE CALCULUS AND GO, "ALL RIGHT, A., B., AND
C.ARE BAD, BUT D., E., AND F.OUTWEIGH THEM.
>> WHEN I HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH THEM, FOR EXAMPLE, AFTER
THE PRESS CONFERENCE WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN, YOU CAN SEE AND
HEAR THEIR BALANCE RESHIFTING.
AND THEY SAY WELL THAT WAS A PERFORMANCE THAT THEY DIDN'T
LIKE FOR REASONS X., Y., AND Z., AND IT OUTWEIGHS OTHER THINGS
THEY LIKE-- SUPREME COURT, TAX S.
>> Stephen: HAS THERE BEEN A MEASURABLE SHIFT IN SUPPORT
BECAUSE OF WHAT HAS BEEN WIDELY DESCRIBED AS THE MOST DISASTROUS
MEETING BETWEEN AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT AND A FOREIGN LEADER
IN AMERICAN HISTORY?
>> I THINK PROBE NOT A BIG ONE, BUT IT IS A LITTLE BIT
NOTICEABLE, AND HERE'S ONLY WAY I NOTICE IT.
IN THE CBS POLL, 86% OF REPUBLICANS GIVE HIM AN APPROVAL
RATING, JUST OVERALL.
AND THEN ON THE ECONOMY AND NORTH KOREA, IT'S EVEN HIGHER
THAN THAT.
ON THIS QUESTION OF HANDLING PUTIN, IT'S A 70.
NOW, 70 IS STILL PRETTY GOOD, RIGHT, BUT IN OUR TRIBAL TIMES
WHERE EVERYBODY IS ON YOUR TEAM NO MATTER WHAT, TO BE AT 70 AND
NOT IN THE HIGH 80s, SUGGESTS THERE'S SOME GROUP OF
REPUBLICANS WHO THINK IT WASN'T-- AND DON'T HAVE
CONFIDENCE IN HIS PERFORMANCE.
SO THAT'S A PRETTY SMALL LITTLE SLIVER, BUT IT DOES SHOW
SOMETHING THAT'S DIFFERENT THAN IN OTHER INSTANCES --
>> Stephen: IT HAD AN IMPACT OF SOME KIND.
>> A LITTLE BIT OF AN IMPACT.
BUT WILL IT STICK?
NO.
>> Stephen: TRUMP HAS SAID YESTERDAY-- I THINK YESTERDAY HE
TWEETED HE IS CONCERNED ABOUT RUSSIANS MEDDLING IN OUR
ELECTIONS BECAUSE THEY'RE PROBABLY GOING TO HELP THE
DEMOCRATS THIS TIME AND THAT THAT WOULD BE A SHAME, YOU KNOW.
WHERE DOES HE GET THAT IDEA?
CAN YOU ASK-- I MEAN, IT'S POSSIBLE.
I'LL START BY SAYING ENTIRELY POSSIBLE.
THAT'S THE BIG DANGER HERE OF NOT REALLY-- OF CALLING IT A
WITCH HUNT IS BECAUSE IF YOU DON'T INVESTIGATE, THEN YOU'RE
NOT PREPARED FOR WHOEVER GETS THE BENEFIT NEXT TIME.
>> SO I GUESS I WOULD SAY A COUPLE THINGS.
ONE, THE FACTS -- WE KNOW THE FACTS.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THEM THE MUELLER INDICTMENT OF THE 12
RUSSIAN SPIES, THE FACT THAT STRUCK ME, HERE YOU ARE, THE
DEMOCRATS ARE ABOUT TO HAVE THEIR CONVENTION, AND THE
RUSSIAN HACKER GETS ON THE PHONE WITH WIKILEAKS AND SAYS, "WOULD
YOU DROP SOME STUFF BECAUSE WE WANT TO CREATE A SANDERS-CLINTON
FIGHT."
I MEAN, THEY WERE REALLY RIGHT IN THE THICK, IN THE MIDDLE OF
THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.
ONLY MAYORAL DALEY IN 1968 CAUSED MORE TROUBLE AT A
CONVENTION.
SINCE THEN, WHEN DONALD TRUMP SAYS, "WELL, THE DEMOCRATS MIGHT
BE THE ONES THE RUSSIANS FAVOR," HE IS TRYING TO, OBVIOUSLY,
CHANGE THE SUBJECT.
HE WANTS SOMEBODY TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION TO SAY IT'S EQUALLY
PLAUSIBLE.
YOU HAD A REPUBLICAN.
YOU HAD A DEMOCRAT.
BUT YOU COULD IMAGINE-- AND I THINK THIS MIGHT BE WHERE YOU'RE
ANYTHING-- IF RUSSIA'S GOAL IS ONLY TO SOW CHAOS AND CLOT
THINGS UP AND MAKE PEOPLE GO-- TO HAVE DEMOCRATS IN CONTROL OF
THE HOUSE, INVESTIGATING THE PRESIDENT, STOPPING HIS AGENDA
FULLY, THAT WOULD BE GLORIOUS FOR MANY DEMOCRATS.
THEY WOULD BELIEVE THAT, BUT FOR THE RUSSIANS WHO WANT TO SEE
CHAOS, THAT WOULD PROBABLY ABE RESULT THEY MIGHT LIKE, BETTER
THAN A HOUSE OF REPUBLICANS WHO ARE GOING TO DO JUST WHAT DONALD
TRUMP SAYS, WHICH IS KIND OF WOULD BE A SMOOTHER SITUATION
FOR AMERICA.
NOW, THE ONLY OTHER THING THAT GOES AGAINST THAT POINT IS THAT
THE DEMOCRATS WOULD POTENTIALLY HAVE MORE SANCTIONS AGAINST
RUSSIA.
>> Stephen: THAT'S WHAT I WAS GOING TO SAY IS THAT RIGHT NOW
PUTIN GETS EVERYTHING HE WANTS, AND THE REPUBLICANS MERELY
LUBRICATE THE SLOPE.
( LAUGHTER ) THE SLOPE.
THE SLOPE.
THE SLIPPERY SLOPE.
GET YOUR MIND OUT OF THE DRUGSTORE!
WE'VE GOT TO GO HERE.
BUT WE FOUND OUT JUST MOMENTS BEFORE THE SHOW STARTED THAT
EUROPE HAS AGREED TO LOWER INDUSTRIAL TARIFFS AND IMPORT
MORE U.S. SOYBEANS AND LIQUID NATURAL GAS.
DID DONALD TRUMP OUT-STUPID THE EUROPEAN UNION?
>> USING THEIR-- USING THEIR DEFINITION.
>> Stephen: THEIR DEFINITION.
>> THE CRITICS WOULD SAY WHAT HE ESSENTIALLY DID WAS GOT IN THIS
BIG FIGHT AND SOLVED THE FIGHT AND BASICALLY GOT THEM BACK TO
WHERE THEY WERE BEFORE THE FIGHT TOOK PLACE.
AND SO -- >> Stephen: YES, I SET A FIRE,
BUT I ALSO CALLED THE FIRE DEPARTMENT.
>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT.
THAT'S WHAT THE CRITICS WOULD SAY.
WHAT THE SUPPORTERS OF THE PRESIDENT WOULD SAY, LOOK, THIS
IS-- WHAT HES DOES DOES-- WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT THIS BEFORE--
HE THROWS A HAND GRENADE INTO THE ROOM, EVERYTHING BLOWS UP,
AND HE RUSHES IN AND CAN CONTROL THE SITUATION.
SO, YEAH, IT'S CHAOTIC.
YEAH, RELATIONS WITH THE E.U.-- REMEMBER, THE E.U. WAS HIS FIRST
ANSWER WHEN HE WAS ASKED ABOUT FOES OF THE UNITED STATES, AND
HE SAID THE E.U.
AND THAT'S AN EXTRAORDINARILY THING FOR AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT
TO SAY.
BUT HIS SUPPORTERS WOULD SAY WELL HE NOW, IN NEGOTIATIONS,
HAS SOME LEVERAGE BECAUSE HE CREATED THIS CHAOS.
HE GOT THEM TO COME TO HIM.
AND EVEN THOUGH THE AGREEMENT ITSELF IS NOT THAT WEIGHTY, HE,
NEVERTHELESS, HAS NIGH LEVERAGE INDEPENDENT NEGOTIATION GLTZ
LEVERAGE IS HE SET FIRE TO THE HOUSE AND HE'S SAYING, "I'M ON
THE PHONE.
I'VE DIALED 9-1... YOU WANT THAT LAST 1, YOU GOTTA NEGOTIATE WITH
ME."
>> MAYBE, OR I THINK THERE MIGHT BE ANOTHER FIRE PART OF THAT
METAPHOR WHICH IS I MIGHT SET 2 AGAIN WITH CARS.
YOU KNOW I CAN SET FIRES BECAUSE THESE HE'S THREATENING --
>> Stephen: WHAT IF I DROVE A CAR INTO THE HOUSE.
>> OR A DURIGIBLE.
>> Stephen: SURE.
THANK YOU, JON.
"CBS THIS MORNING" AIRS WEEKDAY MORNINGS AT 7:00 ON CBS.
JOHN DICKERSON, EVERYBODY!
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